8 ms·

Proprietary APIs can't be a replacement to an open industry standard.

by ginko 11y ago

pjmlp 11y ago
Well OpenGL regardless of urban myths has been mostly ignored by the games industry, except on iOS, Android and indies before the rise of middleware due to lack of proper tooling. So lets see how Vulkan will improve it.
angersock 11y ago
I'm pretty sure that DirectX is a living, breathing counterexample to that claim.
- Joky 11y ago
  I'm pretty sure you missed the point...
- shmerl 11y ago
  And how exactly can you use it on Linux or any other non MS system? It's an example of the disgusting practice of using development tools for lock-in.
  - ntakasaki 11y ago
    Or it can be a very nice object based API instead of a state based API that made sense in 1992 as the slide deck said and certainly didn't make any sense in 2008 when the industry group Khronos sided with the commercial CAD industry to screw over Linux consumer gaming because there was no money in it. How was that DirectX's fault again? I am guess you're not a game developer and your post is yet another case of [1]. I am a game dev and here are some links that show to non game devs why DirectX is more popular: http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/60544/why-do-game-developers-prefer-windows/88055#88055 http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/60544/why-do-... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2711231 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2711231 http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/opengl-directx,2019.html http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/opengl-directx,2019.html [1] http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2009/07/linus-torvalds-microsoft-hatred-is-a-disease/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2009/07/linus-...
    - shmerl 11y ago
      > Or it can be a very nice object based API instead of a state based API That's exactly what Vulkan is. So where is MS voicing their support? > I am a game dev So did you ask MS why they didn't join Vulkan working group? And I'm not sure what was your point in those links about OpenGL. We are talking about Vulkan.
      - ntakasaki 11y ago
        Perhaps because design by a committee of peers usually results in a fragmentation and compatibility nightmare like this: Edit: The below blog redirects HN referrers to a funny image macro, copy paste the link instead. https://www.jwz.org/blog/2012/06/i-have-ported-xscreensaver-to-the-iphone/ https://www.jwz.org/blog/2012/06/i-have-ported-xscreensaver-... The delayed spec hasn't even been released yet and Nvidia is already making Vulkan extensions on its own. https://developer.nvidia.com/engaging-voyage-vulkan https://developer.nvidia.com/engaging-voyage-vulkan
        shmerl 11y ago
        > Perhaps because design by a committee of peers usually results in a fragmentation and compatibility nightmare like this It can. Or it can result in spec which helps everyone instead of just MS alone. Depends on how it's done. Vulkan is done from scratch, and so far I see no signs of them making mistakes of OpenGL. I guess we'll see more once it's released. Either way, what's the alternative? There is none, unless of course you work for MS and envision them controlling everything.
        ntakasaki 11y ago
        >Or it can result in spec which helps everyone instead of just MS alone. Just MS alone? DirectX helps hundreds of millions of gamers, a whole bunch of game and application developers and companies. That's like saying improvements to the Linux kernel help only the Linux kernel. >Vulkan is done from scratch, and so far I see no signs of them making mistakes of OpenGL Huh, how do you see that? The spec is developed behind closed doors by corporate folks each with their own interests. Even the W3C holds open discussions with specs. A real alternative would be for the FOSS/Linux dev community to create and implement a standard properly.
bronxbomber92 11y ago
In practice, the word "open" in "Open Standards", such as OpenGL or Vulkan, doesn't mean very much. For example, being able to vote, participate in the specs' working group, or access the conformance tests costs a considerable amount of money[1]. APIs such as DirectX or Metal receive just as much or more input from developers, albeit mostly through back channels or explicit reach out by Microsoft, Apple, etc. [1] https://www.khronos.org/members/join/ https://www.khronos.org/members/join/
- 1ace 11y ago
  The conformance tests are open source and will be available from day 1 ;) As far as participating in the design of the standard, are you really saying you'd want everyone and their mother to have their word? I think it's best to leave this to GPU vendors and engine implementers, as they're the ones who know how it can work.

Proprietary APIs can't be a replacement to an open industry standard.

by ginko 11y ago

Proprietary APIs can't be a replacement to an open industry standard.

pjmlp 11y ago

Well OpenGL regardless of urban myths has been mostly ignored by the games industry, except on iOS, Android and indies before the rise of middleware due to lack of proper tooling. So lets see how Vulkan will improve it.

angersock 11y ago

I'm pretty sure that DirectX is a living, breathing counterexample to that claim.

Joky 11y ago
I'm pretty sure you missed the point...
shmerl 11y ago
And how exactly can you use it on Linux or any other non MS system? It's an example of the disgusting practice of using development tools for lock-in.
- ntakasaki 11y ago
  Or it can be a very nice object based API instead of a state based API that made sense in 1992 as the slide deck said and certainly didn't make any sense in 2008 when the industry group Khronos sided with the commercial CAD industry to screw over Linux consumer gaming because there was no money in it. How was that DirectX's fault again? I am guess you're not a game developer and your post is yet another case of [1]. I am a game dev and here are some links that show to non game devs why DirectX is more popular: http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/60544/why-do-game-developers-prefer-windows/88055#88055 http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/60544/why-do-... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2711231 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2711231 http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/opengl-directx,2019.html http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/opengl-directx,2019.html [1] http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2009/07/linus-torvalds-microsoft-hatred-is-a-disease/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2009/07/linus-...
  - shmerl 11y ago
    > Or it can be a very nice object based API instead of a state based API That's exactly what Vulkan is. So where is MS voicing their support? > I am a game dev So did you ask MS why they didn't join Vulkan working group? And I'm not sure what was your point in those links about OpenGL. We are talking about Vulkan.
    - ntakasaki 11y ago
      Perhaps because design by a committee of peers usually results in a fragmentation and compatibility nightmare like this: Edit: The below blog redirects HN referrers to a funny image macro, copy paste the link instead. https://www.jwz.org/blog/2012/06/i-have-ported-xscreensaver-to-the-iphone/ https://www.jwz.org/blog/2012/06/i-have-ported-xscreensaver-... The delayed spec hasn't even been released yet and Nvidia is already making Vulkan extensions on its own. https://developer.nvidia.com/engaging-voyage-vulkan https://developer.nvidia.com/engaging-voyage-vulkan
      - shmerl 11y ago
        > Perhaps because design by a committee of peers usually results in a fragmentation and compatibility nightmare like this It can. Or it can result in spec which helps everyone instead of just MS alone. Depends on how it's done. Vulkan is done from scratch, and so far I see no signs of them making mistakes of OpenGL. I guess we'll see more once it's released. Either way, what's the alternative? There is none, unless of course you work for MS and envision them controlling everything.
        ntakasaki 11y ago
        >Or it can result in spec which helps everyone instead of just MS alone. Just MS alone? DirectX helps hundreds of millions of gamers, a whole bunch of game and application developers and companies. That's like saying improvements to the Linux kernel help only the Linux kernel. >Vulkan is done from scratch, and so far I see no signs of them making mistakes of OpenGL Huh, how do you see that? The spec is developed behind closed doors by corporate folks each with their own interests. Even the W3C holds open discussions with specs. A real alternative would be for the FOSS/Linux dev community to create and implement a standard properly.

bronxbomber92 11y ago

In practice, the word "open" in "Open Standards", such as OpenGL or Vulkan, doesn't mean very much. For example, being able to vote, participate in the specs' working group, or access the conformance tests costs a considerable amount of money[1]. APIs such as DirectX or Metal receive just as much or more input from developers, albeit mostly through back channels or explicit reach out by Microsoft, Apple, etc. [1] https://www.khronos.org/members/join/ https://www.khronos.org/members/join/

1ace 11y ago
The conformance tests are open source and will be available from day 1 ;) As far as participating in the design of the standard, are you really saying you'd want everyone and their mother to have their word? I think it's best to leave this to GPU vendors and engine implementers, as they're the ones who know how it can work.