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Well why could you not explain what the money was for? I mean you don't randomly receive 6000 euros from no one that you don't know. They must be paying you for

by x5n1 11y ago

Well why could you not explain what the money was for? I mean you don't randomly receive 6000 euros from no one that you don't know. They must be paying you for something, and there would be a trail somewhere of what that was for. Just because there is no body, does not mean someone can not be convicted of murder. There must be some evidence. In this case the evidence was money, and you have to explain why it's in your bank account.

ryanlol 11y ago
>Well why could you not explain what the money was for? I possess a non-trivial amount of bitcoins, I sold some. It's really impossible for me to figure out what I got those specific bitcoins for, especially since this was around when bitcoin was at around $1k a pop so selling 7 or so was absolutely nothing for me. According to Finnish law money laundering is activity where someone receives, spends, transforms or transfers illicitly obtained (this is a bit difficult to translate but the law specifically says "acquired by crime") property to cover up or disappear the origins of the property. Logically you shouldn't be able to be convicted of this without proof that the crime actually happened, but apparently not here. Lighter sentences seem to make it easier to wrongly convict people, especially when it's extraordinarily rare for them to actually end up in prison.
- hartpuff 11y ago
  You must be processing a lot of money to feel $6k in the very brief period Bitcoin was $1k a pop is nothing. I think most people would remember that. And how is it really impossible to know what you got the Bitcoins for? Don't you have a registered business and submit taxes? Are you saying that you provided to the court evidence of your legitimate business which accepts or transacts Bitcoins for services that it is impossible for you not to know about, in the process of which you acquired 7 or so Bitcoins (transactions for which will be on the blockchain), and then you sold them for a higher price at a Bitcoin exchange (transactions for which you should have receipts and email correspondence for) and they didn't accept it? You don't have to answer any of this, obviously, it's just hard to believe there isn't more to it than what you're saying.
  - ma2rten 11y ago
    He might have just gotten into bitcoins early on.
    - hartpuff 11y ago
      Even if we accept nobody kept receipts or records in the early days of Bitcoin, aside from the blockchain, I can't think of a reason why someone running a legit business would find it "really impossible" to remember what they were selling. Even if he couldn't really remember what his business was selling, he would still have receipts, records and/or emails demonstrating that the source of the 6000 Euros was a legitimate Bitcoin exchange, as a result of the massive increase in price.
      - ryanlol 11y ago
        Oh I know what I've been selling, but I can't really identify specific transactions. Nor do I have receipts, why would I? Most of the transactions are exploit sales over OTR/XMPP, possibly shady but not illegal. This was also before the tax authority clarified on their stance on bitcoins, before that everyone was under the impression that you wouldn't have to tax your coins until you exchange them to real currency. And that's ignoring all the coins I mined way back, it's literally impossible to attribute that transaction to any specific source.
- xorcist 11y ago
  Money is generally considered fungible, and if you really kept a stash at said exchange there's no "those 7 specific coins". You must however be able to explain where everything originated, and the sums have to tally up. Otherwise you risk having to prove that the shiny new car wasn't given to the petty criminal by this kind gentleman whose name was conveniently forgotten.
  - ryanlol 11y ago
    We're talking about bitcoins that went from literally worthless to $1000. Expecting some sort of bookkeeping might be reasonable with real money, but not with imaginary internet money.
- kiiski 11y ago
  You're the guy from the Lizard Squad thing last year, right? Did this case happen before other investigations you've been involved in? If not, was your background used as "evidence" that the bitcoins might have been illegally aqcuired?
  - ryanlol 11y ago
    Yeah. This case was long before anything else, and only actually got to court last year (These investigations take several years here). And no, my background wasn't used as evidence as I was a first time offender. And FWIW the investigation regarding me and LS was dropped a few months ago.

by x5n1 11y ago

ryanlol 11y ago

>Well why could you not explain what the money was for? I possess a non-trivial amount of bitcoins, I sold some. It's really impossible for me to figure out what I got those specific bitcoins for, especially since this was around when bitcoin was at around $1k a pop so selling 7 or so was absolutely nothing for me. According to Finnish law money laundering is activity where someone receives, spends, transforms or transfers illicitly obtained (this is a bit difficult to translate but the law specifically says "acquired by crime") property to cover up or disappear the origins of the property. Logically you shouldn't be able to be convicted of this without proof that the crime actually happened, but apparently not here. Lighter sentences seem to make it easier to wrongly convict people, especially when it's extraordinarily rare for them to actually end up in prison.

hartpuff 11y ago
You must be processing a lot of money to feel $6k in the very brief period Bitcoin was $1k a pop is nothing. I think most people would remember that. And how is it really impossible to know what you got the Bitcoins for? Don't you have a registered business and submit taxes? Are you saying that you provided to the court evidence of your legitimate business which accepts or transacts Bitcoins for services that it is impossible for you not to know about, in the process of which you acquired 7 or so Bitcoins (transactions for which will be on the blockchain), and then you sold them for a higher price at a Bitcoin exchange (transactions for which you should have receipts and email correspondence for) and they didn't accept it? You don't have to answer any of this, obviously, it's just hard to believe there isn't more to it than what you're saying.
- ma2rten 11y ago
  He might have just gotten into bitcoins early on.
  - hartpuff 11y ago
    Even if we accept nobody kept receipts or records in the early days of Bitcoin, aside from the blockchain, I can't think of a reason why someone running a legit business would find it "really impossible" to remember what they were selling. Even if he couldn't really remember what his business was selling, he would still have receipts, records and/or emails demonstrating that the source of the 6000 Euros was a legitimate Bitcoin exchange, as a result of the massive increase in price.
    - ryanlol 11y ago
      Oh I know what I've been selling, but I can't really identify specific transactions. Nor do I have receipts, why would I? Most of the transactions are exploit sales over OTR/XMPP, possibly shady but not illegal. This was also before the tax authority clarified on their stance on bitcoins, before that everyone was under the impression that you wouldn't have to tax your coins until you exchange them to real currency. And that's ignoring all the coins I mined way back, it's literally impossible to attribute that transaction to any specific source.
xorcist 11y ago
Money is generally considered fungible, and if you really kept a stash at said exchange there's no "those 7 specific coins". You must however be able to explain where everything originated, and the sums have to tally up. Otherwise you risk having to prove that the shiny new car wasn't given to the petty criminal by this kind gentleman whose name was conveniently forgotten.
- ryanlol 11y ago
  We're talking about bitcoins that went from literally worthless to $1000. Expecting some sort of bookkeeping might be reasonable with real money, but not with imaginary internet money.
kiiski 11y ago
You're the guy from the Lizard Squad thing last year, right? Did this case happen before other investigations you've been involved in? If not, was your background used as "evidence" that the bitcoins might have been illegally aqcuired?
- ryanlol 11y ago
  Yeah. This case was long before anything else, and only actually got to court last year (These investigations take several years here). And no, my background wasn't used as evidence as I was a first time offender. And FWIW the investigation regarding me and LS was dropped a few months ago.