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Lilli, the German Adult-Themed Cartoon Character Who Became the Barbie Doll
- sandworm101 11y agoIn defence of Barbie, that waist is at least partially utilitarian. It's there to hold the cloths on. Dresses would fall off a more human figure as soon as the kid turned it upside down. It's an answer to the interesting design challenge of trying to scale clothing down to doll proportions without resorting to paper-thin microcloth.
- Alex3917 11y agoAlso, the argument that Barbie isn't realistic doesn't make much sense. We exaggerate almost everything for kids to make it easier for them to understand. E.g. moms speak to their kids in what academics call 'motherese', to make it easier for them to pick up on the syllables. Kids get dressed in gaudy colors that would look ridiculous on adults. And they get fed foods with super exaggerated flavor profiles, e.g. ketchup. All of this is because children's senses are still developing. So I don't see why it's surprising that popular children's toys would represent sort of the platonic ideal of the human form. In reality most people's calves and hips do flare out to some extent, so it makes sense that those sorts of features would be accentuated when reduced to toy form.
- herbig 11y agoWe for sure don't feed kids corn syrup and dress them ridiculously because their senses are still developing. Would clothes fall off a Barbie doll if you flipped it upside down? Do they fall off of Ken? I find that argument highly questionable.
- bognition 11y agoKen wears pants
- madaxe_again 11y agoBut what if ken wants to wear a dress?
- metasean 11y agoOr a kilt?
- madaxe_again 11y agoOr a sporran. I'd like to see them make a leather strap that size that can be tightened but not break, and still not fall off.
- kbenson 11y ago> We for sure don't feed kids corn syrup and dress them ridiculously because their senses are still developing. In some senses, yes, we do. Children often like brightly colored clothes (and objects in general), or clothes with large, obvious representations of things they like. Foods with strong uncomplicated flavor profiles also go over well. Mac & Cheese, Chicken tenders, etc.
- Alex3917 11y ago> We for sure don't feed kids corn syrup and dress them ridiculously because their senses are still developing. http://gladwell.com/the-ketchup-conundrum/ http://gladwell.com/the-ketchup-conundrum/ http://scienceblogs.com/cognitivedaily/2009/06/30/do-babies-like-color-if-so-whi/ http://scienceblogs.com/cognitivedaily/2009/06/30/do-babies-...
- jordigh 11y agoThe effectiveness of motherese is a matter of debate, since it is not a cultural universal. There is a lot of cultural variation with the other simplifications for children that you mentioned. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_talk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_talk
- umanwizard 11y agoHis point doesn't rely on it being effective. He's just pointing out that it's a widespread part of culture.
- sandworm101 11y agoIt works for dogs too. Universally, a slightly higher pitch is used when talking to puppies. The dogs learn that higher pitch is for them an so pay more attention when hearing it.
- pjmlp 11y agoDo you mean when we speak with them, or parent dogs "talking" to their puppies?
- belorn 11y agoOn the recorded lectures from Robert Sapolsky, he talks about motherese being both about teaching language and expressing emotion. The aspect of language is absent when people "talk" to their pets. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIOQgY1tqrU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIOQgY1tqrU
- legulere 11y agoSo we exaggerate female proportions so that girls understand how they should look?
- sandworm101 11y agoWe exaggerate female proportions so that they are better recognized as female by children. This is true of cartoons (barbie is essentially a cartoon person) TV, film, advertising, even music. When you want to sell something to a group you adopt an image which leaves little room for debate. This holds true for male dolls too. I saw a great interview with Mark Hamel once about the evolution of Luke Skywalker dolls, which are now more WWE than a realistic portrayal of his character.
- asddubs 11y agoI wouldn't say that we exaggerate, we give recognizable symbols. For example, in many cartoons, female cartoon characters have eyelashes drawn on their eyes to distinguish them as females, children and adults alike. Now this actually makes no sense because men naturally have thicker eyelashes, and what those eyes were originally supposed to represent were mascara, but then it caught on as a recognizable symbol for being female, despite having no basis in reality. And it's crazy how effective it none the less is.
- sandworm101 11y agoThe eyelash thing is part of the larger phenomena of cuteness. Mammals, be them human babies or puppies, have larger eyes in relation to their heads. It's one of the things that identifies them as young. Women use makeup to draw attention to their eyes, to make them appear bigger and therefore more youthful. So while men may have thicker eyelashes, it is women who generally accentuate their eyelashes, resulting in the social convention that any cartoon with drawn eyelashes is female. Look at the animation in Archer. Lana and Archer both have thick eyebrows, but Archer doesn't have any eyelashes.
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- gnaritas 11y agoAgree on your points about exaggerated stuff for kids, but... > And they get fed foods with super exaggerated flavor profiles, e.g. ketchup What? Since when is ketchup a kids food? That's a pretty widely popular condiment among all ages.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y agoWell it counts as a vegetable in school lunches....
- glenra 11y ago> [ketchup] counts as a vegetable in school lunches... That is a myth. The truth is fairly complex but boils down to that one agency briefly proposed adopting rules that might if adopted have allowed things like pickle relish to "count as a vegetable" in certain contexts. Ketchup was not explicitly listed in the proposed rule and the rule never took effect so we'll never know how local authorities might have used that bit of new flexibility. TL;DR: Ketchup has never counted as a vegetable. (Salsa, on the other hand...) More here: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2517/did-the-reagan-era-usda-really-classify-ketchup-as-a-vegetable http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2517/did-the-reagan... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketchup_as_a_vegetable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketchup_as_a_vegetable
- aribia 11y agoThe (amusing in its existence) lobbying group for the hot dog industry agrees (scroll down a bit or just search for ketchup) http://www.hot-dog.org/culture/hot-dog-etiquette http://www.hot-dog.org/culture/hot-dog-etiquette
- jessaustin 11y agoMost people whose eating habits I've observed over a long period (i.e. my family) use it much less as adults than they did as children. When I was young I dutifully glopped it onto all the traditional foods. Now it seems kind of gross: cloying sweetness with a hint of tomato sauce, and it kind of smells like cough syrup. Sweet is fine, and tomato sauce is fine, in the right dish. Neither of those flavors are appealing straight out of a medicine bottle. All the kids I know consume mass quantities, but most adults have more sophisticated taste.
- salmonet 11y agoAlso, my Max Steel dolls were completely unrealistic but I wouldn't have liked it if they were made to look like a typical american male.
- madaxe_again 11y agoYour child should have only a cube, a tetrahedron and an icosahedron to play with, if we're talking platonic ideals, and dodecahedra are way out.
- dorfsmay 11y agoAs an adult who loves dressing with vibrant colours, I wonder if I'm still developing my senses or just look ridiculous!
- iiiggglll 11y agoNot to mention the size of stitches and seams will be greatly magnified on a very small clothing mannequin (which is what Barbie is ultimately -- it's all about the outfits). This means that places where the clothing should hang and flow also have to be exaggerated, so the tiny waist makes sense.
- sandworm101 11y agoAnd any fasteners are ridiculously oversized so they can be handled by human fingers.
- bobwaycott 11y agoEspecially tiny human fingers.
- kartan 11y agoThe article says that Barbie copied its figure from an scort doll. And it is from there that it got its figure. Or maybe I missunderstood the title, the article and the pictures.
- jtolmar 11y agoGI Joe dolls have clothes and the physique of a refrigerator.
- vfusion 11y agoWould the promiscuous Lilli have been a hit in America? Especially back then. My guess is that it would not have.
- laverick 11y ago"Call Girl" appears to be a complete fabrication. Gold digger? Sure. Sex worker? Hardly. None of the cartoons indicate that Lilli is a prostitute. Even the Wikipedia page says she's a secretary.
- dang 11y agoOk, we replaced "High-end German Call Girl" with "German cartoon character", which seems factual enough. If anyone can suggest a better (i.e. more accurate and neutral) title, we can change it again.
- reitzensteinm 11y agoI'd call it a "German adult themed cartoon character" or similar. The story used to be notable because it's a bit bizarre that a popular kid's toy was a carbon copy of a highly sexual cartoon character aimed at adults. If a popular kid's toy were merely a carbon copy of an existing German cartoon character, alone, it would not really be notable at all. I appreciate the sensitivity around putting labels on the character, especially on a professional setting such as HN, but it's a detail important to the story.
- dang 11y agoOk, we added "adult-themed".
- mc32 11y agoMaybe and maybe not. Many cartoons' were made for an adult audience even if now they are watched by children. This is also seen in movies like Shrek. They have a two pronged approach at one level they are childish but at another they are adult-themed. This one is not that different from Betty Boop. Many movies and cartoons had both childish and adult themes intermixed before the Hayes moral code kicked in.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- sandworm101 11y agoWow. Anyone who thinks Barbie isn't the best role model, or that she pushes an unrealistic image on young girls, read this link I found at the bottom of the OP. http://www.messynessychic.com/2012/10/26/the-little-barbie-that-grew-breasts/ http://www.messynessychic.com/2012/10/26/the-little-barbie-t...
- icebraining 11y agoIt's certainly weird, but what is so terrible about it?
- chaostheory 11y agoLike everything else, Barbie has evolved. There's a new Barbie line called Careers which includes Barbie as a startup founder, doctor, teacher, opthamologist, engineer, and even president. Barbie Careers dolls aren't all caucasian either. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Dtoys-and-games&field-keywords=barbie+careers http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3D...
- oscargrouch 11y agoI cant see this as evolution, because its still going on the same direction, only more adequated to the modern times. It still force's the goal of beauty, success, fame, prestige, money.. far from the reality of life of most people in the world. There isnt a "chubby barbie" for instance.. its natural in kids to be happy with whatever/whoever they are, thats whats awesome in kids. The only way to advance, evolve in this matter, is propably a reality where kids dont care about barbie anymore, and instead of impossible role models, they would choose something else, probably something where they are the ones creating and doing stuff, and not a external role-model of what they are supposed to be when they grow up, that can be the cause of a lot of frustration and impossibility to have a dialetic relation with their own reality, and try to improve it as a result.
- sandworm101 11y agoExcept that when you talk to young people these days Barbie really is the dream. Ask the average highschool student whether they would rather be a doctor or an American Idol winner, astronaut or covergirl. The last study I read listed "paris hilton's personal assistant" over being state governor. For boys, sitcom actor now trumps fighter pilot. Becoming barbie/ken is their american dream.
- tremon 11y agoSo, basically, Mattel owes a large part of its fortune to the non-existence of IP laws?
- jigg4joe 11y agoThe article states that Mattel bought the rights to the doll.
- tremon 11y agodebuted Barbie at the New York toy fair on March 9, 1959 acquired the rights to Bild Lilli in 1964
- tim333 11y agoI'm not sure IP laws stop you making a doll that looks a bit like another doll.
- asddubs 11y agoa bit is a bit of an understatement though.
- meric 11y agoI guess that's why they bought Bild Lilli.
- Natsu 11y agoThere was that Mattel lawsuit over the 'Bratz' doll rights. It resulted in a huge judgement that was later overturned, IIRC. EDIT: I suppose I should mention that there were some issues resulting from the guy who made them changing jobs as well, but still, it's not too far outside that realm.
- tim333 11y agoI think Mattel vs Bratz was mostly about the Bratz guy having been employed by Mattel when he had the idea rather than Bratz being similar to other dolls.
- aaron695 11y agoA comment thread where they translate some of the comics - http://mysticwicks.com/archive/index.php/t-102222.html http://mysticwicks.com/archive/index.php/t-102222.html
- bb101 11y agoDoes anyone else get an icky feeling from looking at cartoons from a late-1940s German newspaper? Entertainment for people of a country that only 5 years ago at the time was ushering millions into forced labor and gas chambers.
- ljf 11y agoHow do you feel reading the papers today?
- bb101 11y agoPretty good. The only countries that seem to be doing the same today are North Korea and, to some extent, ISIS. Neither are from our culture so our ability to exert change is limited.
- throwupper247 11y agoThe US prisson system comes to mind ... completely ridiculous comparison, I know
- ant6n 11y agoThe difference is that post-war Germany was very much confronted with the gravity of what Nazi-Germany had done. The US hasn't had that in more than 100 years.
- throwupper247 11y agoThe irony is, germany was controlled by the allies then, including the US, the ones whose population you just called ignorant, that watches movies about prostitutes' escapedes or war glorification.
- elbasti 11y ago"Some 10,000 children are housed in adult jails and prisons on any given day in America." Relevant chart: http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21647347-treating-young-offenders-grown-ups-makes-little-sense-children-adult-jails http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21647347-treatin...