6 ms·

Adobe CTO on Flash for Mac

26 points by pieter 17y ago

danlove 17y ago
I have to say Kevin is doing an incredible job remaining collected and professional even amongst the unprofessional comments from both the pro-Flash and anti-Flash.
- tjogin 17y ago
  He's saying that all the problems that all of us have with Flash on a daily basis actually do not exist. We're just imagining all of it, all of us. That is not doing an incredible job, it's just not listening.
  - jdowdell 17y ago
    Try actually reading what was said, instead of rephrasing it according to some internal narrative.
    - tjogin 17y ago
      No matter how hard you try, no matter how long you try; you will never ever be able to convince the people of the internets that Flash isn't a crash prone performance hog.
      - jdowdell 17y ago
        Most people don't think it is. That's why everybody uses it. Crashing seems to be mostly directly correlated with pseudonymous Apple-polishing on webforums.... ;-) (btw, if you're sincerely trying to improve your own experience, there's a quick set of diagnostics here: http://blogs.adobe.com/jd/2010/02/troubleshooting_player_stabili.html http://blogs.adobe.com/jd/2010/02/troubleshooting_player_sta... )
        tjogin 17y ago
        People don't use Flash because they like it, they use it to view the content that requires it. It astonishes me that you don't understand this. Like I said; no amount of effort on your part is going to make us forget our experiences with your suck ass plugin crashing our browser every day. Thankfully, there are Flash blocker plugins that make this a more rare event. Your inability to understand this does explain why Flash is getting worse instead of better though. So thanks for that.
- wensing 17y ago
  Somehow he needs to enable ActionScript to cross the same bridge that JavaScript did. Remember when JavaScript was primarily the tool of script kiddies run amok?
- pohl 17y ago
  It's possible to act collected and professional whilst also being obstinate and disingenuous.
nzmsv 17y ago
"These crashes you are seeing do not exist. The 100% CPU usage is likewise an illusion. Also, Google is evil. Believe me!"
- barrkel 17y ago
  FWIW, Flash in Firefox on Win32 has never ever crashed for me. In terms of CPU usage, that was relevant to me perhaps 5 years ago, but now a single core at 100% doesn't break 12.5% system usage - but I seldom see that much CPU usage from Flash except in things like games, where a game loop (=> 100% single CPU) would be expected anyway even if it wasn't Flash. On the other hand, I'm no apologist for Flash. I wish it would go away just as much as the next guy. My only worry is that annoying advertisements that I can currently block trivially using FlashBlock may later be implemented using JS, SVG, canvas, etc., and thereby become much much harder to block reliably.
  - pieter 17y ago
    Yes, on Windows Flash performance is quite acceptable. Try living with it on OS X for a few weeks.
    - wensing 17y ago
      Can you link me to a site that currently thrashes your machine as a result of Flash on the page? I use a white MacBook (i.e. not exactly a monster of a machine) and my biggest headaches come from leaving Firefox open too long (which is why I've switched to Chrome).
      - tseabrooks 17y ago
        I don't have a link on me now, and I'm at work on a windows machine so I can't go fine one. I have a couple year old white macbook and while I've never had a crash from Flash (Or maybe I did and thought it was something else) running flash video pretty much stops the computer from being able to do anything else and proc usage goes to about 85 - 90%. Try running two things in flash at the same time and I might as well not have a computer at all.
Groxx 17y ago
Apple is certainly blocking Adobe despite being able to run Flash on a machine like the iPad. The reason for this isn't because it can run, it's that it can't run well enough to not break the flow of the device, making it feel slow. Most mud being slung back and forth seems to be ignoring this. To a large degree, I agree with this choice, and I welcome Flash's demise (if it happens) in favor of something more open / capable / faster. Flash serves unique needs which have now largely been done better by other tools. Apple is all about feel, and as they absolutely cannot control the quality of the flood of old / crappy flash apps that will grind the machine to a halt if they enable it, they've decided to block it outright. It fits perfectly with their App Store model, where they can ensure programs run quickly enough. Whether you agree with the App Store model or not is another issue entirely, Apple is being merely consistent in all this.
- godDLL 17y ago
  On equal terms there is also the issue of Apple's control over the software that iPhone OS devices run. Adobe's Flash includes an interpreter, that will be used to deliver applications to devices circumventing the AppStore. While Apple officially supports scripting WebKit and extends it ever deeper into iPhone OS APIs, I don't think they'll be willing to take on a similar venture with Adobe's Action Script.
maxklein 17y ago
If they are having problems reproducing the crashes, they should pay for me to send my MacBook to them - it is 100% reproducible every single time. I actually installed Windows on a partition, and I boot in there to play flash video. I open a video site. I try to jump to a location in the middle of the video. It crashes. And of course, if you play 3-4 videos, the MacBook will decide to switch itself off because of overheating.
- wensing 17y ago
  Link, please? Would like to try it on my Mac here.
- tseabrooks 17y ago
  Obviously it's the macbook's fault - It's not designed to play that many videos... /sarcasm
- slig 17y ago
  Mine was shutting itself off because of heating when playing videos. Turns out my cooling fan didn't work at high speed. heck yours before melting something there...
elrodeo 17y ago
> Flash has been incredibly successful in its adoption, with over > 85% of the top web sites containing Flash content and Flash > running on over 98% of computers on the Web. Oh really? I've disabled Flash on all my browsers a week ago and don't even notice that I'm missing so much web-content!
- stuff4ben 17y ago
  My guess is that 85% number is actually referring to a majority of that content being flash-based ads. So both of you are right.
  - Psyonic 17y ago
    That poses an interesting question: A certain amount of people here think that using ad-block is wrong, because you are denying that site revenue, etc. I don't want to rehash that argument, but what I'm wondering is do they feel the same about not installing flash? You're still blocking a lot of ads, but the main difference is you're choosing not to install something, rather than installing something extra to block things.

26 points by pieter 17y ago

I have to say Kevin is doing an incredible job remaining collected and professional even amongst the unprofessional comments from both the pro-Flash and anti-Flash.

tjogin 17y ago
He's saying that all the problems that all of us have with Flash on a daily basis actually do not exist. We're just imagining all of it, all of us. That is not doing an incredible job, it's just not listening.
- jdowdell 17y ago
  Try actually reading what was said, instead of rephrasing it according to some internal narrative.
  - tjogin 17y ago
    No matter how hard you try, no matter how long you try; you will never ever be able to convince the people of the internets that Flash isn't a crash prone performance hog.
    - jdowdell 17y ago
      Most people don't think it is. That's why everybody uses it. Crashing seems to be mostly directly correlated with pseudonymous Apple-polishing on webforums.... ;-) (btw, if you're sincerely trying to improve your own experience, there's a quick set of diagnostics here: http://blogs.adobe.com/jd/2010/02/troubleshooting_player_stabili.html http://blogs.adobe.com/jd/2010/02/troubleshooting_player_sta... )
      - tjogin 17y ago
        People don't use Flash because they like it, they use it to view the content that requires it. It astonishes me that you don't understand this. Like I said; no amount of effort on your part is going to make us forget our experiences with your suck ass plugin crashing our browser every day. Thankfully, there are Flash blocker plugins that make this a more rare event. Your inability to understand this does explain why Flash is getting worse instead of better though. So thanks for that.
wensing 17y ago
Somehow he needs to enable ActionScript to cross the same bridge that JavaScript did. Remember when JavaScript was primarily the tool of script kiddies run amok?
pohl 17y ago
It's possible to act collected and professional whilst also being obstinate and disingenuous.

nzmsv 17y ago

"These crashes you are seeing do not exist. The 100% CPU usage is likewise an illusion. Also, Google is evil. Believe me!"

barrkel 17y ago
FWIW, Flash in Firefox on Win32 has never ever crashed for me. In terms of CPU usage, that was relevant to me perhaps 5 years ago, but now a single core at 100% doesn't break 12.5% system usage - but I seldom see that much CPU usage from Flash except in things like games, where a game loop (=> 100% single CPU) would be expected anyway even if it wasn't Flash. On the other hand, I'm no apologist for Flash. I wish it would go away just as much as the next guy. My only worry is that annoying advertisements that I can currently block trivially using FlashBlock may later be implemented using JS, SVG, canvas, etc., and thereby become much much harder to block reliably.
- pieter 17y ago
  Yes, on Windows Flash performance is quite acceptable. Try living with it on OS X for a few weeks.
  - wensing 17y ago
    Can you link me to a site that currently thrashes your machine as a result of Flash on the page? I use a white MacBook (i.e. not exactly a monster of a machine) and my biggest headaches come from leaving Firefox open too long (which is why I've switched to Chrome).
    - tseabrooks 17y ago
      I don't have a link on me now, and I'm at work on a windows machine so I can't go fine one. I have a couple year old white macbook and while I've never had a crash from Flash (Or maybe I did and thought it was something else) running flash video pretty much stops the computer from being able to do anything else and proc usage goes to about 85 - 90%. Try running two things in flash at the same time and I might as well not have a computer at all.

Groxx 17y ago

Apple is certainly blocking Adobe despite being able to run Flash on a machine like the iPad. The reason for this isn't because it can run, it's that it can't run well enough to not break the flow of the device, making it feel slow. Most mud being slung back and forth seems to be ignoring this. To a large degree, I agree with this choice, and I welcome Flash's demise (if it happens) in favor of something more open / capable / faster. Flash serves unique needs which have now largely been done better by other tools. Apple is all about feel, and as they absolutely cannot control the quality of the flood of old / crappy flash apps that will grind the machine to a halt if they enable it, they've decided to block it outright. It fits perfectly with their App Store model, where they can ensure programs run quickly enough. Whether you agree with the App Store model or not is another issue entirely, Apple is being merely consistent in all this.

godDLL 17y ago
On equal terms there is also the issue of Apple's control over the software that iPhone OS devices run. Adobe's Flash includes an interpreter, that will be used to deliver applications to devices circumventing the AppStore. While Apple officially supports scripting WebKit and extends it ever deeper into iPhone OS APIs, I don't think they'll be willing to take on a similar venture with Adobe's Action Script.

maxklein 17y ago

If they are having problems reproducing the crashes, they should pay for me to send my MacBook to them - it is 100% reproducible every single time. I actually installed Windows on a partition, and I boot in there to play flash video. I open a video site. I try to jump to a location in the middle of the video. It crashes. And of course, if you play 3-4 videos, the MacBook will decide to switch itself off because of overheating.

wensing 17y ago
Link, please? Would like to try it on my Mac here.
tseabrooks 17y ago
Obviously it's the macbook's fault - It's not designed to play that many videos... /sarcasm
slig 17y ago
Mine was shutting itself off because of heating when playing videos. Turns out my cooling fan didn't work at high speed. heck yours before melting something there...

elrodeo 17y ago

> Flash has been incredibly successful in its adoption, with over > 85% of the top web sites containing Flash content and Flash > running on over 98% of computers on the Web. Oh really? I've disabled Flash on all my browsers a week ago and don't even notice that I'm missing so much web-content!

stuff4ben 17y ago
My guess is that 85% number is actually referring to a majority of that content being flash-based ads. So both of you are right.
- Psyonic 17y ago
  That poses an interesting question: A certain amount of people here think that using ad-block is wrong, because you are denying that site revenue, etc. I don't want to rehash that argument, but what I'm wondering is do they feel the same about not installing flash? You're still blocking a lot of ads, but the main difference is you're choosing not to install something, rather than installing something extra to block things.