9 ms·

Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

157 points by zds 11y ago

dubcanada 11y ago
So basically another class for kids to play minecraft in while the teacher who doesn't even have a degree in Comp Sci attempts to teach programming.
rdlecler1 11y ago
If you're going to inspire students you're going to need a lot of teachers who are experts in CS. Unfortunately, our current education system doesn't allow experts to teach so now someone who knows CS is going to have to go get an education degree as well, just to take a massive pay cut.
- jcizzle 11y ago
  This is true of all subjects, though. The purpose isn't to train world class engineers out of high school, it is to expose more people to the subject and the thought processes that go into it.
  - aianus 11y ago
    > This is true of all subjects, though. No, it's not. You're not going to do better with your English degree than English teacher so there's no disincentive to becoming one. Hence, students get reasonably competent English teachers. High School CS teachers, on the other hand, have to be completely incompetent or insane to choose to teach for $40k when they could be writing CRUD apps for $100k.
    - eli_gottlieb 11y ago
      I write firmware for $90k and I'm insane enough to have always wanted to be a teacher.
      - selimthegrim 11y ago
        Now I'm imagining what "Firmware Madness" would be as a fear mongering video to scare kids away from writing firmware.
    - RhysU 11y ago
      Ah, but that $100K will last for but one generation as the market is flooded with students that can write CRUD applications.
- FLGMwt 11y ago
  A different opportunity around this is the TEALS[1] program. CS professionals teach a early morning CS class two to three times a week. The member school in my area is close enough to make it to my morning stand-up at work afterwards. Granted, the teacher stipend is inconsequential so it's much more of a volunteer position, but that's significantly less sacrificial than being a dedicated teacher. 1:https://www.tealsk12.org/ https://www.tealsk12.org/
- nommm-nommm 11y ago
  >our current education system doesn't allow experts to teach This isn't true in my state.
chris_wot 11y ago
How about he reforms patent law further first? Not much good having computer scientists innovating if some patent troll comes along and stymies that innovation.
throwaway420 11y ago
People are intelligent in many different ways and I don't believe that most people have the abstract thinking skills necessary to really thrive in computer science. Forcing everybody to take part in computer science education is probably going to frustrate the hell out of most people (make them feel stupid and annoyed at having to do this stuff) and dumb down the curriculum for the small percentage of kids who would naturally thrive at this stuff. Also, given the insanity in the education field, I don't see too many actually good computer science teachers wanting to be there even if more money is being thrown around. If I had to guess, a lot more career minded Machiavellian types are going to be trying to grab onto the gravy train and get some of these gigs and the side effect of this will be that the kids get even crappier teachers. Like most government programs, on the surface this sounds good. I could very well be wrong, but like most government programs it will probably end up costing more money than planned and have the opposite of its intended effect.
- wfo 11y ago
  I think you're overestimating how hard CS is compared to other fields (hint: it's not harder). They teach calculus in high school. And calculus-based physics. They have autoshop and woodshop which is honestly very similar to the kind of CS I would imagine high school students learning (understanding systems, debugging, building them, learning which pieces fit where and how to make them do what you want, following tutorials and being able to figure things out when they go wrong)
  - brapadap 11y ago
    what percentage of high school students actually learn calculus and physics (and get at least OK grades)?
    - tblumer3 11y ago
      Only 26% of high school seniors are considered "Proficient" at math, which I can assure you is a MUCH lower bar than knowing calculus. http://www.nationsreportcard.gov/ http://www.nationsreportcard.gov/
wrong_variable 11y ago
The real problem is not computer science. Everyone in the United States cannot be a programmer - its going to lead to the same problem we have with law, business, etc. Too many graduates leading to labour oversupply. Government will always be slower to respond then markets. So even though right now there is a shortage of programmers - it might not be the case once these student's graduate. So Govt is always one step behind the movements in markets. What is more important is helping students understand how important learning is. Even though my skills in programming helps me get paid - I use the knowledge I have in biology ( learnt in school ) to make informed decisions as a consumer. My knowledge in writing helps when I need to explain a difficult concept to my bosses. My skills in mathematics helps me model problems in much more efficient ways. Being a programmer in a society with no doctors, or chemists is no fun. Its understanding that the economy is extremely complex - and rather than create bursts of inefficiency in one area - the best thing to do is facilitate the system to perform better - maybe make it easier for labour ( students ) to choose what they want to do with their lives - rather than burden them with student debt ?
- mempko 11y ago
  Makes me wonder if education maybe should not be about satisfying markets.
  - txru 11y ago
    The trouble is, things are always about satisfying markets, whether we like the market it satisfies or not. For example, in the early days of the university in England and France, higher education served to satisfy the market of younger-child aristocracy who needed something to do to make them valuable to their family. It's no coincidence that monastaries, reading, and higher education were very often neighbors, and sometimes part of the same organization- they served chunks of the same market. That the universities started opening themselves to lower scions of aristocracy was a side-effect of how profitable that market could be, and the value that graduates could provide. [0] In a more modern example, the disciplines of higher education that have less-certain ROI, but are still judged to be valuable, or serve education for education's sake: I would say that those serve the market of people who are either idealistic, or believe they understand some long-term feature of humanity that the 1-year, 5-year, or generational time-scale markets ignore. They pay the price, but they still do hope for ROI of some sort- even if not in cash. Even more nebulous things, such as very low-overhead charities, serve a market- the market for people to feel generous, to avoid guilt, or to serve causes that the traditional free market overlooks. That so many charities are very high-overhead, or so bad at satisfying the ends they ostensibly aim for, seems to be a symptom that people don't care so much about the assuaging, as the fact that they have attempted to assuage. So, are there ways to remove education from the capricious, short-term, short-sited nature of the modern free-market? Of course. State action, benevolent organizations, and other more attempts at far-sitedness are a good way to adjust the externalities of education. However, you simply cannot remove education from the market. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_university https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_university
rayiner 11y ago
Only a tiny fraction of the population needs to understand computer science. Most people will struggle through it, learn to hate it, and immediately forget it after they graduate, just as they do with math and science. Meanwhile, college professors will have to spend inordinate amounts of time unteaching all the stupid things kids learned in K-12, because there is no way to structure these curricula in a way that serves as a good foundation for those who will actually major in the subject and is simultaneously approachable for everyone else. Public education should serve some practical purpose: teaching kids the basic skills everyone needs to be productive in the workforce and to contribute as citizens. To that end, I'd advocate taking courses away instead of adding them. Math and science education in K-12 is a disaster and a waste of time for all but a small fraction of kids. We'd be better off taking those out, shortening mandatory education to K-10, and letting kids who actually want to go into particular fields study the relevant coursework when they're old enough to actually learn it properly.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  I disagree with your claim about the impossibility.of broadly accessible foundational CS that is still good ground for majors; not only so I think it's possible, but I think at least one viable approach already exists in How to Design Programs -- the text itself may not be ideal for secondary students (though IIRC is been used successfully at that level), but the basic method and approach for teaching computing as a core subject is sound.
  - rayiner 11y ago
    I'll check out that text, but I'm skeptical. We had a CS requirement for all engineering majors at Georgia Tech, and even among that group it was frustrating and largely a waste of everyone's time. Of course, I also don't think we've succeeded in that goal with math and science either. Physics was a requirement in high school, but our physics classes in college taught everything from the ground up because god only knew what kids learned in K-12.
  - harryh 11y ago
    Worth considering: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/07/stupider-than-you-realize.html http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/07/stupider-than-you-real...
subpixel 11y ago
I currently teach basic CS in an inner-city school, on a volunteer basis. Unfortunately, the problem isn't "US public schools lack {{important thing}}". The problem is that US public education is deeply broken. It's interesting to see the momentum living wage/minimum income campaigns are getting. But education equality, for which there must be a better term, isn't often brought up. At the school I'm in, when a kid with any potential comes in, the only course of action is to to help her transfer out to a school where she will actually learn something. Sadly, this is not the exception - there are literally millions of kids around the country in similar schools.
- alpsgolden 11y ago
  At the school I'm in, when a kid with any potential comes in, the only course of action is to to help her transfer out to a school where she will actually learn something. Sadly, this is not the exception - there are literally millions of kids around the country in similar schools. Why aren't they learning anything in your school? What should the school be doing that they are not doing now?
  - ams6110 11y ago
    Inner city school. First of all they often have basic infrastructure issues: leaky roofs, poorly- or non-working heat, rodent and insect infestations. OK those things are in theory correctable. Secondly is the demographics. Inner city kids are often from low-income single-parent homes, living with foster parents or extended relatives, moving a couple of times a year, one or both parents may be incarcerated. Being around substance abusers is another big problem. Education is really low on the list of things they or their parents care about. And it's impossible to fix that at school.
    - c06n 11y ago
      Would you say that once (a part of a) society is broken, it's broken for good? And that we would have to "transfer" people out of it if they are to have a future?
wfo 11y ago
Is this a good thing? I'm reminded of the "well-meaning" pushes by large tech companies to flood the market with immigrant labor and drive salaries down. Though I wouldn't say this is malicious I think it may have the same effect. We will get many, many more bad programmers. We still have no good way to tell a good programmer apart from a bad one. We have no licensing, we have no professional organization, we have no standards. Right now the barrier for entry is really, really low for an upper or middle class person who wants to learn about programming and CS. For the poor, what good is CS if you don't have regular access to a computer? How many graduating seniors in poor communities own their own laptops? Have consistent internet access? I think a pledge like this needs to focus all of its attention on low-income students for it to be worthwhile.
- samfisher83 11y ago
  I think computers are pretty prevalent.
samfisher83 11y ago
When I was in high school about 10years ago or so everyone was required to take a computer class. Computer science was the only AP class (More GPA Points) so everyone took that.
protomyth 11y ago
I'll wait for it to pass and for the actual RFP to be created. I was very disappointed in the whole broadband money that was restricted to areas and groups that had an interest in keeping the existing infrastructure status quo.
cms07 11y ago
I can't wait for the labor surplus to drive down my wages.
- omegaham 11y ago
  Does teaching algebra drive down the salaries of engineers? I think that the learning curve between "able to automate simple things in Excel" and "doing software development as a career" is high enough that it's not going to do much to wages.
- hasenj 11y ago
  That's not how it works. First of all, teaching everyone computer science will not create more programmers. I doubt that's even the intent. Second, if there were more programmers, there would eventually be more jobs. More business people would realize the amount of surplus (assuming it ever happens) and they will find ways to utilize it. or, more technology startups could spring up. There are still a lot of problems in this world that technology can solve.
- thesimon 11y ago
  At my High School, everyone had to take a Computer Science class for at least 1 year. My year had 60 students and I'm the only one studying CS/working in the industry. I'm pretty sure your, mine and everyone's wage will be alright. Yes, only an anecdote, but it's not like everyone is switching from their dreams to become a doctor/lawyer/pilot/xyz to a CS job just because they had a HS class.
Kephael 11y ago
I don't believe there is any shortage of computer science talent. I believe there is only a shortage of students graduating with CS degrees from schools like Stanford and MIT which is what many employers are looking for. NACE figures really seem to indicate we don't need more junior level programmers as 42.5% of graduating seniors majoring in CS did not have a full time job offer (not even in unrelated fields) at the time of graduation. http://career.sa.ucsb.edu/files/docs/handouts/2014-student-survey.pdf http://career.sa.ucsb.edu/files/docs/handouts/2014-student-s...
- NotSammyHagar 11y ago
  Degrees from standford or mit only matter in your first job, or to idiots. There is a shortage of good practitioners. In the startup I worked in, in seattle, we basically failed because we could never hire the 15 more people on top of the 5 we had. We paid market prices plus the usual worthless questionable stock options, but everyone we liked had multiple offers. My new company wants to hire 20 devs a month for the next 2 years. Microsoft keeps shedding people but amazon, google, facebook, oracle, hp, emc/vmware everyone is hiring like crazy.
  - sandworm101 11y ago
    > .... only matter in your first job, or to idiots. Today, every job is your first job. We are all contractors, constantly re-interviewing and justifying ourself to our customers. And the idiots are in charge. Every founder who needs my help seems to be a 20-something kid who thinks knowledge is something you can pick up at a trade show or week-long intensive at some resort.
    - tblumer3 11y ago
      Your last line doesn't make sense. If they think that, then they are going to fail. Hence, they won't be in charge...
      - sandworm101 11y ago
sandworm101 11y ago
How much of this will go to good teachers and interesting programs? And how much will simply be spent on overpriced machines (microsoft) and proprietary "connected classroom" concepts (apple)? You don't need much equipment to teach CS. Basic machines will do. And there is no need to spend any money on software these days (f/oss). I worry that this money is less an educational initiative and more a handout to those companies who sell services to schools. Which organizations are behind this pledge?
- kevin_thibedeau 11y ago
  The organizations that want to sell common core style instructional materials to school districts. Their lobbyists just wrote them a $4B check.
- devsquid 11y ago
  Man................. You raise a good point. I read the headline and was pretty stoked to see my country reinvesting in itself. But this is US, fuck. I think iPads are wonderful devices, but to think a school would buy them for their students just seems stupid and short sighted. I think Chromebooks offer the most compelling class room solution. They are hyper secure, come with a keyboard, and extremely easy to manage and share.
  - sandworm101 11y ago
    Computer equipment for schools is all about limiting how they can be used. iPad are given trackers. Desktops are locked behind content filters. The last thing anyone wants is some kid running unauthorized code.
    - bobwaycott 11y ago
      I think the last thing anyone wants in a school system is some kid accessing porn, or something judged to be equally offensive. I see school tech policies each year. They're never worried about, and rarely ever mention anything that could arguably be interpreted as, prohibiting running unauthorized code. That would require school administrators to know what unauthorized code is.
facepalm 11y ago
These days I struggle to find a lot of use cases for non-IT-people to use programming. It makes a fine hobby, but not better than another hobby. For a while I was enthusiastic about things like Greasemonkey which would have allowed people to modify the software they use on a daily base. But it doesn't seem to have taken off, and presumably web clients are increasingly more complex so that "greasemonkeying" become too complex, too. Long story short - I'd be happy to hear about examples for ways that non-IT-people could improve their lives with programming. I have even considered to donate part of my time to solving such problems, choosing from user-submitted problems.
its2complicated 11y ago
This is just more bullshit to waste money on. In 8 years of development, I can count on one hand the programmers who showed any interest in programming outside of work, or that have GitHub accounts, or that know what a Binary Tree is. Programming has become, for the most part, Web development and the barrier to entry is so low that anyone can enter it after studying material off the Internet and watching YouTube videos. To be even more controversial, CS is not even needed for most programming today, but only for passing interviews.
- hackaflocka 11y ago
  100% agree. A basic Udacity course in programming can be very effective in teaching programming. These days all the Necessary educational material is available free off the internet.
ghufran_syed 11y ago
Do we really want to "reduce such a beautiful and meaningful art form to something so mindless and trivial[?]; no culture could be so cruel to its children as to deprive them of such a natural,satisfying means of human expression. How absurd!" - Lockhart [1]. He was talking about math, but I am sure the same results would occur with computer science "education" if done in high schools. "One of the best ways to stifle the growth of an idea is to enshrine it in an educational curriculum." - Hal Abelson[2] [1] https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/LockhartsLament.... [2] https://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~bh/ssch0/foreword.html https://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~bh/ssch0/foreword.html
- awakeasleep 11y ago
  "Now class, boot up visual studio. Today we'll be continuing our lesson on the Abstract Factory pattern."
- crdb 11y ago
  Related anecdote: I had "computer science" classes in middle school in France. They consisted of typing classes. I still remember sheets of "QSDF JKLM" or whatever it was that had to be typed x times before moving on to a slightly more complex pattern. I think the class was graded based on how far you got down the sheet by the end of the hour.
snickerdoodles 11y ago
Stop H1-B replacement of workers and that might really mean something.
nso95 11y ago
And they'll just train mediocre math teachers to be even more mediocre CS teachers. Teachers are generally expected to have a degree which is closely related to what they'll be teaching. This is not the case for high school CS teachers.
bronz 11y ago
I'm transferring to a UC in computer science soon. This is the last year in which computer science will not be considered an "impacted major" at my school. A sign of the times. Recently everyone's been talking about making CS mandatory in high school. And looking around on the web I see that some of the resources for learning computer science are very nice indeed. Is it petty to be worried that there will soon be so many computer science people in the world that I wont be able to make a living in computer science? I feel like a hypocrite for being an advocate for single payer healthcare, which is a step forward but might destroy a lot of jobs in the insurance business, and simultaneously hoping that computer science remains somewhat exclusive.
sakopov 11y ago
Can anybody explain to me this push for everyone to be a programmer? Is there a belief floating out there that everyone in 10-20 years is going to have to know how to program? I just don't understand it. Who's going to teach computer science to kids? How many software devs do you know how quit their jobs to teach at a high school? If not them, who's qualified to teach this subject? This will ultimately end up with unqualified teachers teaching computer science while kids are fucking around and playing computer games. What an atrocious waste of money. Why not spend $4B to fix piss-poor American education system so that we can produce graduates who are ready for college and not trying to catch up taking Algebra I or basic reading /English.
- ceras 11y ago
  My guess is for the same reasons as other high school topic: so you can understand how the world around you works, and so you can get a taste of what you might want to study full time in college and feel prepared for it. To emphasize the second point, I only started programming in college sophomore year due to a requirement in my original major, and would have been too intimidated to take it otherwise thanks to all the other kids that had learned before college (a situation unique to CS). Yet now as a developer I earn more than me or my parents could ever have dreamed, just because my college happened to require I take the course. I know others who were too intimidated and weren't forced into it. What if they'd tried it out in high school? Maybe they too would have a shot at what is arguably among the best careers in the US (good pay / reasonably low stress / low cost of entry).
puppetmaster3 11y ago
Let me fix the title: Obama Pledges $4 Billion to Computer Science in US Schools, money from the USA tax payers. Your money. Not his money.
waylandsmithers 11y ago
I honestly don't think we've figured out how to teach people how to code yet, so throwing a ton of money at this apparent problem will do little.
littletimmy 11y ago
IMHO, it is a mistake to teach kids something like computer science early on in school. The focus of a school should be to teach kids transferrable skills in the classics: mathematics, art, latin, etc. The students will always have time to specialize, but they will never get a chance to build a solid foundation.
ori_b 11y ago
As I said elsewhere: That money needs to go directly to raising teacher salaries. Currently, teaching is a pretty crappy career for anyone that's not extremely self sacrificing and idealistic. Starting salaries for a teacher -- after additional years in school -- are something like a half to a third of a salary for a programmer in the USA, as far as I can tell. The upper bound for salary also seems much higher in industry. So, salarywise, it's a bad choice. The job is seen as socially important, but not to the degree that enough for amazingly talented people to flock to it in the numbers that are needed. So, prestigewise, its' also a bad choice. As a result, the bulk of teaching positions are not held by the best and brightest. They're often not even held by the good and bright. There aren't enough people who would prioritize children over their own futures. And as long as teaching suffers from a lack of respectability or a lack of salary, teaching is going to suffer. And before you blame the institutions -- institutions are run by the people who went into this system.
clockworkelf 11y ago
Why is the federal government in education?
nikdaheratik 11y ago
I had an excellent intro CS teacher in 9th grade who was ex-Army with an actual CS degree. He also taught Algebra. We got to spend a year of course basically playing around in Hypercard. I also had a mediocre programming class in 10th grade at the Sr. High school taught by a part time business teacher. We spent a semester programming in Basic on a decade old IBM box. You can guess which class was the better influence on my decision to go into CS full-time. The frustrating thing was that there was an entire lab full of 5-6 year old Macs that we were not allowed to touch outside of typing classes, so the decision to use the crappy 10 year old non-GUI machines was basically curriculum related. The point being, teachers are important (and this initiative won't help with that), but even getting some good tech into the hands of students would help more than you realize. There are still schools with not enough resources to teach a decent CS course or more than a vague idea of what kind of curriculum would cut it in the real world.

157 points by zds 11y ago

So basically another class for kids to play minecraft in while the teacher who doesn't even have a degree in Comp Sci attempts to teach programming.

rdlecler1 11y ago

If you're going to inspire students you're going to need a lot of teachers who are experts in CS. Unfortunately, our current education system doesn't allow experts to teach so now someone who knows CS is going to have to go get an education degree as well, just to take a massive pay cut.

jcizzle 11y ago
This is true of all subjects, though. The purpose isn't to train world class engineers out of high school, it is to expose more people to the subject and the thought processes that go into it.
- aianus 11y ago
  > This is true of all subjects, though. No, it's not. You're not going to do better with your English degree than English teacher so there's no disincentive to becoming one. Hence, students get reasonably competent English teachers. High School CS teachers, on the other hand, have to be completely incompetent or insane to choose to teach for $40k when they could be writing CRUD apps for $100k.
  - eli_gottlieb 11y ago
    I write firmware for $90k and I'm insane enough to have always wanted to be a teacher.
    - selimthegrim 11y ago
      Now I'm imagining what "Firmware Madness" would be as a fear mongering video to scare kids away from writing firmware.
  - RhysU 11y ago
    Ah, but that $100K will last for but one generation as the market is flooded with students that can write CRUD applications.
FLGMwt 11y ago
A different opportunity around this is the TEALS[1] program. CS professionals teach a early morning CS class two to three times a week. The member school in my area is close enough to make it to my morning stand-up at work afterwards. Granted, the teacher stipend is inconsequential so it's much more of a volunteer position, but that's significantly less sacrificial than being a dedicated teacher. 1:https://www.tealsk12.org/ https://www.tealsk12.org/
nommm-nommm 11y ago
>our current education system doesn't allow experts to teach This isn't true in my state.

chris_wot 11y ago

How about he reforms patent law further first? Not much good having computer scientists innovating if some patent troll comes along and stymies that innovation.

throwaway420 11y ago

People are intelligent in many different ways and I don't believe that most people have the abstract thinking skills necessary to really thrive in computer science. Forcing everybody to take part in computer science education is probably going to frustrate the hell out of most people (make them feel stupid and annoyed at having to do this stuff) and dumb down the curriculum for the small percentage of kids who would naturally thrive at this stuff. Also, given the insanity in the education field, I don't see too many actually good computer science teachers wanting to be there even if more money is being thrown around. If I had to guess, a lot more career minded Machiavellian types are going to be trying to grab onto the gravy train and get some of these gigs and the side effect of this will be that the kids get even crappier teachers. Like most government programs, on the surface this sounds good. I could very well be wrong, but like most government programs it will probably end up costing more money than planned and have the opposite of its intended effect.

wfo 11y ago
I think you're overestimating how hard CS is compared to other fields (hint: it's not harder). They teach calculus in high school. And calculus-based physics. They have autoshop and woodshop which is honestly very similar to the kind of CS I would imagine high school students learning (understanding systems, debugging, building them, learning which pieces fit where and how to make them do what you want, following tutorials and being able to figure things out when they go wrong)
- brapadap 11y ago
  what percentage of high school students actually learn calculus and physics (and get at least OK grades)?
  - tblumer3 11y ago
    Only 26% of high school seniors are considered "Proficient" at math, which I can assure you is a MUCH lower bar than knowing calculus. http://www.nationsreportcard.gov/ http://www.nationsreportcard.gov/

wrong_variable 11y ago

The real problem is not computer science. Everyone in the United States cannot be a programmer - its going to lead to the same problem we have with law, business, etc. Too many graduates leading to labour oversupply. Government will always be slower to respond then markets. So even though right now there is a shortage of programmers - it might not be the case once these student's graduate. So Govt is always one step behind the movements in markets. What is more important is helping students understand how important learning is. Even though my skills in programming helps me get paid - I use the knowledge I have in biology ( learnt in school ) to make informed decisions as a consumer. My knowledge in writing helps when I need to explain a difficult concept to my bosses. My skills in mathematics helps me model problems in much more efficient ways. Being a programmer in a society with no doctors, or chemists is no fun. Its understanding that the economy is extremely complex - and rather than create bursts of inefficiency in one area - the best thing to do is facilitate the system to perform better - maybe make it easier for labour ( students ) to choose what they want to do with their lives - rather than burden them with student debt ?

mempko 11y ago
Makes me wonder if education maybe should not be about satisfying markets.
- txru 11y ago
  The trouble is, things are always about satisfying markets, whether we like the market it satisfies or not. For example, in the early days of the university in England and France, higher education served to satisfy the market of younger-child aristocracy who needed something to do to make them valuable to their family. It's no coincidence that monastaries, reading, and higher education were very often neighbors, and sometimes part of the same organization- they served chunks of the same market. That the universities started opening themselves to lower scions of aristocracy was a side-effect of how profitable that market could be, and the value that graduates could provide. [0] In a more modern example, the disciplines of higher education that have less-certain ROI, but are still judged to be valuable, or serve education for education's sake: I would say that those serve the market of people who are either idealistic, or believe they understand some long-term feature of humanity that the 1-year, 5-year, or generational time-scale markets ignore. They pay the price, but they still do hope for ROI of some sort- even if not in cash. Even more nebulous things, such as very low-overhead charities, serve a market- the market for people to feel generous, to avoid guilt, or to serve causes that the traditional free market overlooks. That so many charities are very high-overhead, or so bad at satisfying the ends they ostensibly aim for, seems to be a symptom that people don't care so much about the assuaging, as the fact that they have attempted to assuage. So, are there ways to remove education from the capricious, short-term, short-sited nature of the modern free-market? Of course. State action, benevolent organizations, and other more attempts at far-sitedness are a good way to adjust the externalities of education. However, you simply cannot remove education from the market. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_university https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_university

rayiner 11y ago

Only a tiny fraction of the population needs to understand computer science. Most people will struggle through it, learn to hate it, and immediately forget it after they graduate, just as they do with math and science. Meanwhile, college professors will have to spend inordinate amounts of time unteaching all the stupid things kids learned in K-12, because there is no way to structure these curricula in a way that serves as a good foundation for those who will actually major in the subject and is simultaneously approachable for everyone else. Public education should serve some practical purpose: teaching kids the basic skills everyone needs to be productive in the workforce and to contribute as citizens. To that end, I'd advocate taking courses away instead of adding them. Math and science education in K-12 is a disaster and a waste of time for all but a small fraction of kids. We'd be better off taking those out, shortening mandatory education to K-10, and letting kids who actually want to go into particular fields study the relevant coursework when they're old enough to actually learn it properly.

dragonwriter 11y ago
I disagree with your claim about the impossibility.of broadly accessible foundational CS that is still good ground for majors; not only so I think it's possible, but I think at least one viable approach already exists in How to Design Programs -- the text itself may not be ideal for secondary students (though IIRC is been used successfully at that level), but the basic method and approach for teaching computing as a core subject is sound.
- rayiner 11y ago
  I'll check out that text, but I'm skeptical. We had a CS requirement for all engineering majors at Georgia Tech, and even among that group it was frustrating and largely a waste of everyone's time. Of course, I also don't think we've succeeded in that goal with math and science either. Physics was a requirement in high school, but our physics classes in college taught everything from the ground up because god only knew what kids learned in K-12.
- harryh 11y ago
  Worth considering: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/07/stupider-than-you-realize.html http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/07/stupider-than-you-real...

subpixel 11y ago

I currently teach basic CS in an inner-city school, on a volunteer basis. Unfortunately, the problem isn't "US public schools lack {{important thing}}". The problem is that US public education is deeply broken. It's interesting to see the momentum living wage/minimum income campaigns are getting. But education equality, for which there must be a better term, isn't often brought up. At the school I'm in, when a kid with any potential comes in, the only course of action is to to help her transfer out to a school where she will actually learn something. Sadly, this is not the exception - there are literally millions of kids around the country in similar schools.

alpsgolden 11y ago
At the school I'm in, when a kid with any potential comes in, the only course of action is to to help her transfer out to a school where she will actually learn something. Sadly, this is not the exception - there are literally millions of kids around the country in similar schools. Why aren't they learning anything in your school? What should the school be doing that they are not doing now?
- ams6110 11y ago
  Inner city school. First of all they often have basic infrastructure issues: leaky roofs, poorly- or non-working heat, rodent and insect infestations. OK those things are in theory correctable. Secondly is the demographics. Inner city kids are often from low-income single-parent homes, living with foster parents or extended relatives, moving a couple of times a year, one or both parents may be incarcerated. Being around substance abusers is another big problem. Education is really low on the list of things they or their parents care about. And it's impossible to fix that at school.
  - c06n 11y ago
    Would you say that once (a part of a) society is broken, it's broken for good? And that we would have to "transfer" people out of it if they are to have a future?

wfo 11y ago

Is this a good thing? I'm reminded of the "well-meaning" pushes by large tech companies to flood the market with immigrant labor and drive salaries down. Though I wouldn't say this is malicious I think it may have the same effect. We will get many, many more bad programmers. We still have no good way to tell a good programmer apart from a bad one. We have no licensing, we have no professional organization, we have no standards. Right now the barrier for entry is really, really low for an upper or middle class person who wants to learn about programming and CS. For the poor, what good is CS if you don't have regular access to a computer? How many graduating seniors in poor communities own their own laptops? Have consistent internet access? I think a pledge like this needs to focus all of its attention on low-income students for it to be worthwhile.

samfisher83 11y ago
I think computers are pretty prevalent.

samfisher83 11y ago

When I was in high school about 10years ago or so everyone was required to take a computer class. Computer science was the only AP class (More GPA Points) so everyone took that.

protomyth 11y ago

I'll wait for it to pass and for the actual RFP to be created. I was very disappointed in the whole broadband money that was restricted to areas and groups that had an interest in keeping the existing infrastructure status quo.

cms07 11y ago

I can't wait for the labor surplus to drive down my wages.

omegaham 11y ago
Does teaching algebra drive down the salaries of engineers? I think that the learning curve between "able to automate simple things in Excel" and "doing software development as a career" is high enough that it's not going to do much to wages.
hasenj 11y ago
That's not how it works. First of all, teaching everyone computer science will not create more programmers. I doubt that's even the intent. Second, if there were more programmers, there would eventually be more jobs. More business people would realize the amount of surplus (assuming it ever happens) and they will find ways to utilize it. or, more technology startups could spring up. There are still a lot of problems in this world that technology can solve.
thesimon 11y ago
At my High School, everyone had to take a Computer Science class for at least 1 year. My year had 60 students and I'm the only one studying CS/working in the industry. I'm pretty sure your, mine and everyone's wage will be alright. Yes, only an anecdote, but it's not like everyone is switching from their dreams to become a doctor/lawyer/pilot/xyz to a CS job just because they had a HS class.

Kephael 11y ago

I don't believe there is any shortage of computer science talent. I believe there is only a shortage of students graduating with CS degrees from schools like Stanford and MIT which is what many employers are looking for. NACE figures really seem to indicate we don't need more junior level programmers as 42.5% of graduating seniors majoring in CS did not have a full time job offer (not even in unrelated fields) at the time of graduation. http://career.sa.ucsb.edu/files/docs/handouts/2014-student-survey.pdf http://career.sa.ucsb.edu/files/docs/handouts/2014-student-s...

NotSammyHagar 11y ago
Degrees from standford or mit only matter in your first job, or to idiots. There is a shortage of good practitioners. In the startup I worked in, in seattle, we basically failed because we could never hire the 15 more people on top of the 5 we had. We paid market prices plus the usual worthless questionable stock options, but everyone we liked had multiple offers. My new company wants to hire 20 devs a month for the next 2 years. Microsoft keeps shedding people but amazon, google, facebook, oracle, hp, emc/vmware everyone is hiring like crazy.
- sandworm101 11y ago
  > .... only matter in your first job, or to idiots. Today, every job is your first job. We are all contractors, constantly re-interviewing and justifying ourself to our customers. And the idiots are in charge. Every founder who needs my help seems to be a 20-something kid who thinks knowledge is something you can pick up at a trade show or week-long intensive at some resort.
  - tblumer3 11y ago
    Your last line doesn't make sense. If they think that, then they are going to fail. Hence, they won't be in charge...
    - sandworm101 11y ago

sandworm101 11y ago

How much of this will go to good teachers and interesting programs? And how much will simply be spent on overpriced machines (microsoft) and proprietary "connected classroom" concepts (apple)? You don't need much equipment to teach CS. Basic machines will do. And there is no need to spend any money on software these days (f/oss). I worry that this money is less an educational initiative and more a handout to those companies who sell services to schools. Which organizations are behind this pledge?

kevin_thibedeau 11y ago
The organizations that want to sell common core style instructional materials to school districts. Their lobbyists just wrote them a $4B check.
devsquid 11y ago
Man................. You raise a good point. I read the headline and was pretty stoked to see my country reinvesting in itself. But this is US, fuck. I think iPads are wonderful devices, but to think a school would buy them for their students just seems stupid and short sighted. I think Chromebooks offer the most compelling class room solution. They are hyper secure, come with a keyboard, and extremely easy to manage and share.
- sandworm101 11y ago
  Computer equipment for schools is all about limiting how they can be used. iPad are given trackers. Desktops are locked behind content filters. The last thing anyone wants is some kid running unauthorized code.
  - bobwaycott 11y ago
    I think the last thing anyone wants in a school system is some kid accessing porn, or something judged to be equally offensive. I see school tech policies each year. They're never worried about, and rarely ever mention anything that could arguably be interpreted as, prohibiting running unauthorized code. That would require school administrators to know what unauthorized code is.

facepalm 11y ago

These days I struggle to find a lot of use cases for non-IT-people to use programming. It makes a fine hobby, but not better than another hobby. For a while I was enthusiastic about things like Greasemonkey which would have allowed people to modify the software they use on a daily base. But it doesn't seem to have taken off, and presumably web clients are increasingly more complex so that "greasemonkeying" become too complex, too. Long story short - I'd be happy to hear about examples for ways that non-IT-people could improve their lives with programming. I have even considered to donate part of my time to solving such problems, choosing from user-submitted problems.

its2complicated 11y ago

This is just more bullshit to waste money on. In 8 years of development, I can count on one hand the programmers who showed any interest in programming outside of work, or that have GitHub accounts, or that know what a Binary Tree is. Programming has become, for the most part, Web development and the barrier to entry is so low that anyone can enter it after studying material off the Internet and watching YouTube videos. To be even more controversial, CS is not even needed for most programming today, but only for passing interviews.

hackaflocka 11y ago
100% agree. A basic Udacity course in programming can be very effective in teaching programming. These days all the Necessary educational material is available free off the internet.

ghufran_syed 11y ago

Do we really want to "reduce such a beautiful and meaningful art form to something so mindless and trivial[?]; no culture could be so cruel to its children as to deprive them of such a natural,satisfying means of human expression. How absurd!" - Lockhart [1]. He was talking about math, but I am sure the same results would occur with computer science "education" if done in high schools. "One of the best ways to stifle the growth of an idea is to enshrine it in an educational curriculum." - Hal Abelson[2] [1] https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/LockhartsLament.... [2] https://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~bh/ssch0/foreword.html https://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~bh/ssch0/foreword.html

awakeasleep 11y ago
"Now class, boot up visual studio. Today we'll be continuing our lesson on the Abstract Factory pattern."
crdb 11y ago
Related anecdote: I had "computer science" classes in middle school in France. They consisted of typing classes. I still remember sheets of "QSDF JKLM" or whatever it was that had to be typed x times before moving on to a slightly more complex pattern. I think the class was graded based on how far you got down the sheet by the end of the hour.

snickerdoodles 11y ago

Stop H1-B replacement of workers and that might really mean something.

nso95 11y ago

And they'll just train mediocre math teachers to be even more mediocre CS teachers. Teachers are generally expected to have a degree which is closely related to what they'll be teaching. This is not the case for high school CS teachers.

bronz 11y ago

I'm transferring to a UC in computer science soon. This is the last year in which computer science will not be considered an "impacted major" at my school. A sign of the times. Recently everyone's been talking about making CS mandatory in high school. And looking around on the web I see that some of the resources for learning computer science are very nice indeed. Is it petty to be worried that there will soon be so many computer science people in the world that I wont be able to make a living in computer science? I feel like a hypocrite for being an advocate for single payer healthcare, which is a step forward but might destroy a lot of jobs in the insurance business, and simultaneously hoping that computer science remains somewhat exclusive.

sakopov 11y ago

Can anybody explain to me this push for everyone to be a programmer? Is there a belief floating out there that everyone in 10-20 years is going to have to know how to program? I just don't understand it. Who's going to teach computer science to kids? How many software devs do you know how quit their jobs to teach at a high school? If not them, who's qualified to teach this subject? This will ultimately end up with unqualified teachers teaching computer science while kids are fucking around and playing computer games. What an atrocious waste of money. Why not spend $4B to fix piss-poor American education system so that we can produce graduates who are ready for college and not trying to catch up taking Algebra I or basic reading /English.

ceras 11y ago
My guess is for the same reasons as other high school topic: so you can understand how the world around you works, and so you can get a taste of what you might want to study full time in college and feel prepared for it. To emphasize the second point, I only started programming in college sophomore year due to a requirement in my original major, and would have been too intimidated to take it otherwise thanks to all the other kids that had learned before college (a situation unique to CS). Yet now as a developer I earn more than me or my parents could ever have dreamed, just because my college happened to require I take the course. I know others who were too intimidated and weren't forced into it. What if they'd tried it out in high school? Maybe they too would have a shot at what is arguably among the best careers in the US (good pay / reasonably low stress / low cost of entry).

puppetmaster3 11y ago

Let me fix the title: Obama Pledges $4 Billion to Computer Science in US Schools, money from the USA tax payers. Your money. Not his money.

waylandsmithers 11y ago

I honestly don't think we've figured out how to teach people how to code yet, so throwing a ton of money at this apparent problem will do little.

littletimmy 11y ago

IMHO, it is a mistake to teach kids something like computer science early on in school. The focus of a school should be to teach kids transferrable skills in the classics: mathematics, art, latin, etc. The students will always have time to specialize, but they will never get a chance to build a solid foundation.

ori_b 11y ago

As I said elsewhere: That money needs to go directly to raising teacher salaries. Currently, teaching is a pretty crappy career for anyone that's not extremely self sacrificing and idealistic. Starting salaries for a teacher -- after additional years in school -- are something like a half to a third of a salary for a programmer in the USA, as far as I can tell. The upper bound for salary also seems much higher in industry. So, salarywise, it's a bad choice. The job is seen as socially important, but not to the degree that enough for amazingly talented people to flock to it in the numbers that are needed. So, prestigewise, its' also a bad choice. As a result, the bulk of teaching positions are not held by the best and brightest. They're often not even held by the good and bright. There aren't enough people who would prioritize children over their own futures. And as long as teaching suffers from a lack of respectability or a lack of salary, teaching is going to suffer. And before you blame the institutions -- institutions are run by the people who went into this system.

clockworkelf 11y ago

Why is the federal government in education?

nikdaheratik 11y ago

I had an excellent intro CS teacher in 9th grade who was ex-Army with an actual CS degree. He also taught Algebra. We got to spend a year of course basically playing around in Hypercard. I also had a mediocre programming class in 10th grade at the Sr. High school taught by a part time business teacher. We spent a semester programming in Basic on a decade old IBM box. You can guess which class was the better influence on my decision to go into CS full-time. The frustrating thing was that there was an entire lab full of 5-6 year old Macs that we were not allowed to touch outside of typing classes, so the decision to use the crappy 10 year old non-GUI machines was basically curriculum related. The point being, teachers are important (and this initiative won't help with that), but even getting some good tech into the hands of students would help more than you realize. There are still schools with not enough resources to teach a decent CS course or more than a vague idea of what kind of curriculum would cut it in the real world.