4 ms·

My best friend is a devout atheist and he likes to quote dawkins and hitchens and other high priests of his religion. I use these terms purposefully. He's every

by waspleg 11y ago

My best friend is a devout atheist and he likes to quote dawkins and hitchens and other high priests of his religion. I use these terms purposefully. He's every bit as fervent as any hell fire and brimstone Baptist. We are/were both raised in, and still live in, the "Bible Belt" as well. I've studied most world religions, have read quite a bit in that arena from the esoteric like "A Course in Miracles", "The Book of Urantia", Meister Eckhart, much of Jiddu Krishnamurti, the Tao Te Ching, etc etc to formalized things like William James's the variety of religious experience. I've had my own, I would say spiritual rather than religious, experiences that are deeply personal and beyond the rationale of atheists. I have seen firsthand how introspection and quiet-minded observation can provide insight and intuition. However, I also I went to science magnet schools starting in pre-school, work in IT, and am quite a rational pragmatic individual. I consider myself to be an agnostic at the moment mostly due to a lack of options. I don't consider it to be a "weasel term". Uncertainty is ubiquitous in life. How is this topic any different? There's always Pascal's Wager ;)

danieltillett 11y ago
You do know that Pascal’s Wager is logically flawed [1]? 1 http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pascal's_wager http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pascal's_wager
- 77pt77 11y ago
  > rationalwiki Please don't!
  - danieltillett 11y ago
    Sure it is not the best, but do you have a better link? Still doesn’t change that Pascal’s Wages is fundamentally flawed.
mindcrime 11y ago
My best friend is a devout atheist and he likes to quote dawkins and hitchens and other high priests of his religion. I use these terms purposefully. He's every bit as fervent as any hell fire and brimstone Baptist. Yeah, I know what you mean. I am an atheist, but not what I call a "militant atheist", or a "Dawkins / Hitchens acolyte". I believe (or dis-believe) what I believe, but I'm not worried about getting in other people's faces and contesting things with them. The only time I care what other people believe is when you get into situations where people try to use the hammer that is government, to force their religious beliefs on people who don't share those beliefs. I consider myself to be an agnostic at the moment mostly due to a lack of options. I don't consider it to be a "weasel term". Yeah, I could have worded that better. I'd say it was a "weasel term" for me to call myself agnostic, as I really was an atheist all along. I just wasn't quite confident enough to really state it firmly, and also I think I thought that saying "agnostic" instead of "atheist" was less likely to provoke conflict (again, living in the Bible Belt, with lots of friends and family who are very religious). I have nothing against the term agnostic in general, I just realized I was using it to avoid the issue.
- pstuart 11y ago
  Militant atheism has legitimate basis: http://reason.com/archives/2012/03/27/believers-atheists-worse-rapists http://reason.com/archives/2012/03/27/believers-atheists-wor...
mikeash 11y ago
Uncertainty is ubiquitous, yet few people feel a need to qualify their disbelief in leprechauns, unicorns, Darth Vader, etc. Why is it only gods where this seems to be required? As for Pascal's Wager, what if God rewards atheists and sends believers to Hell?
- Fr0styMatt88 11y ago
  While unsatisfying I think the answer is "because of the culture we find ourselves in". Nothing more, nothing less. Culturally speaking, leprechauns, unicorns and Darth Vader have no relation to "Why is there something instead of nothing?" and other such deep questions. I really think that's all it is.
- ghufran_syed 11y ago
  As well as the 'wrong god' problem: when it turns out there is a god, just not the one you were praying to... :)
- stcredzero 11y ago
  As far as I can tell, there are several dozen distinct and completely different personalities attributed to the Christian God, depending on who, from whichever Christian denomination you ask.
- orionblastar 11y ago
  According to Pope Francis: http://www.oregonlive.com/today/index.ssf/2015/12/pope_francis_offers_hope_to_fa.html http://www.oregonlive.com/today/index.ssf/2015/12/pope_franc... God rewards atheists who are good and do good things. Other forms of Christianity may disagree with that.
- martinflack 11y ago
  > Uncertainty is ubiquitous, yet few people feel a need to qualify their disbelief in leprechauns, unicorns, Darth Vader, etc. Why is it only gods where this seems to be required? It's because those things would by definition be within our universe and thus probably testable. However a deity that controls our universe may be outside it, thus leaving us with no way to test for him, despite his control. In hacker analogy, would a Sim character in a VM be able to be completely sure that you (god) don't exist? To "not believe in god" is rational based on available evidence. To "believe there is no god" is an act of faith in itself because it (very likely) cannot be tested. At least IMHO.
Fr0styMatt88 11y ago
This is basically my viewpoint on agnosticism vs atheism as well. My trajectory was Catholic (but not devout) -> atheist -> agnostic. I'm fascinated by all kinds of religions as historical artefacts even though I don't follow any specific one. I certainly don't view agnosticism as a weasel term either. I cannot be certain there is no god any more than I could be certain there is one (and note by god I'm not referring to the man with the beard and the pearly gates and all that.... something that I think can easily get lost in conversation on this topic). I think it's honest to just say "I don't know". I have a friend who's in the process of discovering his own atheism and while atheism is not a religion, I can clearly see the similarity in passion. I was likely the same back when I was exploring it at first. Have heard lots about The Selfish Gene but never actually sat down and read it.... should really do so. Is there a more modern version to read these days, or is TSG timelessly applicable?
- dntrkv 11y ago
  Would you say you are agnostic when it comes to belief in Thor? Santa? Unicorns? The FSM? I'm not trying to incite an argument here, I'm genuinely curious.
  - Fr0styMatt88 11y ago
    No because as far as I am aware (and I may be wrong here), agnosticism is a concept that applies specifically to your views towards religion and spirituality, which to me more concretely means your inquiry into the question "Why are we here?". The question begs another though and I think this is what you're really trying to ask: Why is belief in God given special consideration apart from beliefs in things like Thor, Santa, Unicorns, FSM, other works of fiction? Am I right in this assertion? EDIT: If this is the case, my answer is similar to one I gave above: Religion is 'special' because it was woven into society long before we developed the scientific understandings that we have now.
goldfeld 11y ago
How can I get in touch? I've been getting deep into esoteric spiritual practice and I also love and used to program for a living. I miss an alternate reality HN with a humanities hive mind.
throwupper247 11y ago
What about Pascal's Wager? It's nonsense, given an impossible number of gods to honour
dang 11y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10999088 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10999088 and marked it off-topic.

by waspleg 11y ago

danieltillett 11y ago

You do know that Pascal’s Wager is logically flawed [1]? 1 http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pascal's_wager http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pascal's_wager

77pt77 11y ago
> rationalwiki Please don't!
- danieltillett 11y ago
  Sure it is not the best, but do you have a better link? Still doesn’t change that Pascal’s Wages is fundamentally flawed.

mindcrime 11y ago

My best friend is a devout atheist and he likes to quote dawkins and hitchens and other high priests of his religion. I use these terms purposefully. He's every bit as fervent as any hell fire and brimstone Baptist. Yeah, I know what you mean. I am an atheist, but not what I call a "militant atheist", or a "Dawkins / Hitchens acolyte". I believe (or dis-believe) what I believe, but I'm not worried about getting in other people's faces and contesting things with them. The only time I care what other people believe is when you get into situations where people try to use the hammer that is government, to force their religious beliefs on people who don't share those beliefs. I consider myself to be an agnostic at the moment mostly due to a lack of options. I don't consider it to be a "weasel term". Yeah, I could have worded that better. I'd say it was a "weasel term" for me to call myself agnostic, as I really was an atheist all along. I just wasn't quite confident enough to really state it firmly, and also I think I thought that saying "agnostic" instead of "atheist" was less likely to provoke conflict (again, living in the Bible Belt, with lots of friends and family who are very religious). I have nothing against the term agnostic in general, I just realized I was using it to avoid the issue.

pstuart 11y ago
Militant atheism has legitimate basis: http://reason.com/archives/2012/03/27/believers-atheists-worse-rapists http://reason.com/archives/2012/03/27/believers-atheists-wor...

mikeash 11y ago

Uncertainty is ubiquitous, yet few people feel a need to qualify their disbelief in leprechauns, unicorns, Darth Vader, etc. Why is it only gods where this seems to be required? As for Pascal's Wager, what if God rewards atheists and sends believers to Hell?

Fr0styMatt88 11y ago
While unsatisfying I think the answer is "because of the culture we find ourselves in". Nothing more, nothing less. Culturally speaking, leprechauns, unicorns and Darth Vader have no relation to "Why is there something instead of nothing?" and other such deep questions. I really think that's all it is.
ghufran_syed 11y ago
As well as the 'wrong god' problem: when it turns out there is a god, just not the one you were praying to... :)
stcredzero 11y ago
As far as I can tell, there are several dozen distinct and completely different personalities attributed to the Christian God, depending on who, from whichever Christian denomination you ask.
orionblastar 11y ago
According to Pope Francis: http://www.oregonlive.com/today/index.ssf/2015/12/pope_francis_offers_hope_to_fa.html http://www.oregonlive.com/today/index.ssf/2015/12/pope_franc... God rewards atheists who are good and do good things. Other forms of Christianity may disagree with that.
martinflack 11y ago
> Uncertainty is ubiquitous, yet few people feel a need to qualify their disbelief in leprechauns, unicorns, Darth Vader, etc. Why is it only gods where this seems to be required? It's because those things would by definition be within our universe and thus probably testable. However a deity that controls our universe may be outside it, thus leaving us with no way to test for him, despite his control. In hacker analogy, would a Sim character in a VM be able to be completely sure that you (god) don't exist? To "not believe in god" is rational based on available evidence. To "believe there is no god" is an act of faith in itself because it (very likely) cannot be tested. At least IMHO.

Fr0styMatt88 11y ago

This is basically my viewpoint on agnosticism vs atheism as well. My trajectory was Catholic (but not devout) -> atheist -> agnostic. I'm fascinated by all kinds of religions as historical artefacts even though I don't follow any specific one. I certainly don't view agnosticism as a weasel term either. I cannot be certain there is no god any more than I could be certain there is one (and note by god I'm not referring to the man with the beard and the pearly gates and all that.... something that I think can easily get lost in conversation on this topic). I think it's honest to just say "I don't know". I have a friend who's in the process of discovering his own atheism and while atheism is not a religion, I can clearly see the similarity in passion. I was likely the same back when I was exploring it at first. Have heard lots about The Selfish Gene but never actually sat down and read it.... should really do so. Is there a more modern version to read these days, or is TSG timelessly applicable?

dntrkv 11y ago
Would you say you are agnostic when it comes to belief in Thor? Santa? Unicorns? The FSM? I'm not trying to incite an argument here, I'm genuinely curious.
- Fr0styMatt88 11y ago
  No because as far as I am aware (and I may be wrong here), agnosticism is a concept that applies specifically to your views towards religion and spirituality, which to me more concretely means your inquiry into the question "Why are we here?". The question begs another though and I think this is what you're really trying to ask: Why is belief in God given special consideration apart from beliefs in things like Thor, Santa, Unicorns, FSM, other works of fiction? Am I right in this assertion? EDIT: If this is the case, my answer is similar to one I gave above: Religion is 'special' because it was woven into society long before we developed the scientific understandings that we have now.

goldfeld 11y ago

How can I get in touch? I've been getting deep into esoteric spiritual practice and I also love and used to program for a living. I miss an alternate reality HN with a humanities hive mind.

throwupper247 11y ago

What about Pascal's Wager? It's nonsense, given an impossible number of gods to honour

dang 11y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10999088 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10999088 and marked it off-topic.