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> You're accepting a video stream degraded to a bitrate that's still acceptable on a mobile device for unlimited video consumption (which requires technical int

> You're accepting a video stream degraded to a bitrate that's still acceptable on a mobile device for unlimited video consumption (which requires technical intervention). If you read the EFF's report on this, they show that T-Mobile is not cooperating with Google, et. al. in order to provide this service. All they're doing is artificially throttling the connection their own end, and letting the video service's automatic bitrate selection take effect.

toomuchtodo 11y ago
Is that because Google is using QUIC? Which uses UDP? Which T-mobile's BingeOn config doesn't support (as outlined in the very T-mobile docs referenced in this advocacy paper)?
- untog 11y ago
  It shouldn't matter. If T-Mobile hasn't got a BingeOn agreement with a provider, they should be connecting to it just like they would if BingeOn were disabled. But that is not the case. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/01/eff-confirms-t-mobiles-bingeon-optimization-just-throttling-applies https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/01/eff-confirms-t-mobiles... "The first result of our test confirms that when Binge On is enabled, T-Mobile throttles all HTML5 video streams to around 1.5Mps, even when the phone is capable of downloading at higher speeds, and regardless of whether or not the video provider enrolled in Binge On."
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    Are we going to argue back and forth all day about this? That seems like an unproductive use of both of our times. I support T-mobile's zero rating. You do not. We can argue the technical details all day long. I no longer donate to the EFF after their campaign against T-Mobile. I also would donate to whatever SuperPAC attempts to lean on the FCC to ensure zero rating is permitted to continue (as it behooves me as a mobile customer; I don't care about your startup, in the general sense). Too often, Hacker News gets weighed down in the minutia, the little bits that don't matter to the non-technical. That's fine, of course. We love engineering for engineering's sake. But if you want to effect real change, remember that there aren't any strings to pull here to do that. Its simply an echo chamber of like minded folks with internet points to giveth or taketh away.
    - untog 11y ago
      This is a quite specific point, away from the general debate about what T-Mobile and net neutrality. They are throttling a service because it does not participate in their BingeOn program. That is horribly anti-competitive and bad for users. Why do you want T-Mobile to slow down your connection to YouTube and give you absolutely no discernible benefit from it? It absolutely boggles my mind.
      - toomuchtodo 11y ago
        > Why do you want T-Mobile to slow down your connection to YouTube and give you absolutely no discernible benefit from it? It absolutely boggles my mind. Because I consume almost all of my contact through BingeOn partners, and don't watch YouTube, so it behooves me? Does that truly boggle your mind? Why do I care if YouTube is throttled if I don't use it?
        untog 11y ago
        So there's basically no principle at stake here at all? If they throttle YouTube and you don't use it, that's OK. If they throttle Netflix and you do use it, you'll oppose it? That seems exceptionally short sighted, but to each their own. As you say, I doubt we're going to change each other's minds here.
        toomuchtodo 11y ago
        > So there's basically no principle at stake here at all? There is, but you're fighting the wrong fight. Twiddling bits for network management = okay. Twiddling bits because you own a network and a content provider = not okay. Get back to me when you're fighting the right fight, and I'm more than happy to help.
        dsp1234 11y ago
        Twiddling bits for network management = okay. If this was twiddling bits for network management, then they would be done at the point where they throttle all video (which they are doing). But they are going past that, and also giving it away 'for free' to end users, but only if a service signs up. So in either case (whether a service is signed up for BingeOn or not), a streaming service is having their videos throttled. So what benefit does T-Mobile get by giving away it's 'twiddled bits'? One answer is 'to try to make network neutrality violations more palatible'. However no answer could be 'traffic management' because they are already doing it regardless of the BingeOn status of the provider.
- shkkmo 11y ago
  No, T-mobile is detecting all video content and throttling it. This include video files that you download instead of streaming.

toomuchtodo 11y ago

Is that because Google is using QUIC? Which uses UDP? Which T-mobile's BingeOn config doesn't support (as outlined in the very T-mobile docs referenced in this advocacy paper)?

untog 11y ago
It shouldn't matter. If T-Mobile hasn't got a BingeOn agreement with a provider, they should be connecting to it just like they would if BingeOn were disabled. But that is not the case. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/01/eff-confirms-t-mobiles-bingeon-optimization-just-throttling-applies https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/01/eff-confirms-t-mobiles... "The first result of our test confirms that when Binge On is enabled, T-Mobile throttles all HTML5 video streams to around 1.5Mps, even when the phone is capable of downloading at higher speeds, and regardless of whether or not the video provider enrolled in Binge On."
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  Are we going to argue back and forth all day about this? That seems like an unproductive use of both of our times. I support T-mobile's zero rating. You do not. We can argue the technical details all day long. I no longer donate to the EFF after their campaign against T-Mobile. I also would donate to whatever SuperPAC attempts to lean on the FCC to ensure zero rating is permitted to continue (as it behooves me as a mobile customer; I don't care about your startup, in the general sense). Too often, Hacker News gets weighed down in the minutia, the little bits that don't matter to the non-technical. That's fine, of course. We love engineering for engineering's sake. But if you want to effect real change, remember that there aren't any strings to pull here to do that. Its simply an echo chamber of like minded folks with internet points to giveth or taketh away.
  - untog 11y ago
    This is a quite specific point, away from the general debate about what T-Mobile and net neutrality. They are throttling a service because it does not participate in their BingeOn program. That is horribly anti-competitive and bad for users. Why do you want T-Mobile to slow down your connection to YouTube and give you absolutely no discernible benefit from it? It absolutely boggles my mind.
    - toomuchtodo 11y ago
      > Why do you want T-Mobile to slow down your connection to YouTube and give you absolutely no discernible benefit from it? It absolutely boggles my mind. Because I consume almost all of my contact through BingeOn partners, and don't watch YouTube, so it behooves me? Does that truly boggle your mind? Why do I care if YouTube is throttled if I don't use it?
      - untog 11y ago
        So there's basically no principle at stake here at all? If they throttle YouTube and you don't use it, that's OK. If they throttle Netflix and you do use it, you'll oppose it? That seems exceptionally short sighted, but to each their own. As you say, I doubt we're going to change each other's minds here.
        toomuchtodo 11y ago
        > So there's basically no principle at stake here at all? There is, but you're fighting the wrong fight. Twiddling bits for network management = okay. Twiddling bits because you own a network and a content provider = not okay. Get back to me when you're fighting the right fight, and I'm more than happy to help.
        dsp1234 11y ago
        Twiddling bits for network management = okay. If this was twiddling bits for network management, then they would be done at the point where they throttle all video (which they are doing). But they are going past that, and also giving it away 'for free' to end users, but only if a service signs up. So in either case (whether a service is signed up for BingeOn or not), a streaming service is having their videos throttled. So what benefit does T-Mobile get by giving away it's 'twiddled bits'? One answer is 'to try to make network neutrality violations more palatible'. However no answer could be 'traffic management' because they are already doing it regardless of the BingeOn status of the provider.
shkkmo 11y ago
No, T-mobile is detecting all video content and throttling it. This include video files that you download instead of streaming.