6 ms·

> Also, if programming in Excel is so awesome, why am I not developing banking software using it? Well, if you took away Excel, the banking system would collap

by elthran 11y ago

> Also, if programming in Excel is so awesome, why am I not developing banking software using it? Well, if you took away Excel, the banking system would collapse. It might be old and clunky, but it can do anything you need it to. It might not be "real programming", but near enough anyone is able to get a spreadsheet up and running much faster than a POC app that's been built in a proper programming language.

dexwiz 11y ago
Excel has a tight development loop. You can see the data and work with it at the same time. No need to compile or run. It's always in debug mode.
- felixgallo 11y ago
  indeed, probably the most widely deployed functional declarative language on the planet.
bobm_kite9 11y ago
> Well, if you took away Excel, the banking system would collapse. Lovely comment, and so true. And you're right: for a POC it's unstoppable. I was trying to get to the nub of "why is it perfect for a POC, but not for running an enterprise application"? That's kind of my point, though I admit it was a bit clunkily-put.
osullivj 11y ago
Yes - lots of banking software is developed in Excel. I'm referring to the software developed by non developers - by end users. Excel is their IDE of choice. They develop in Excel because vendors and in house IT teams don't meet their needs.
vinceguidry 11y ago
Oh it's real programming, as far as I'm concerned. My problem with Excel is that it has the worst tooling out of any application platform I've ever encountered, and it's subject to the hideous whims of Microsoft on the quality front. When one imports a CSV into Excel, Excel has a nasty tendency to actually change the data based on formatting rules. When you open up a CSV file in Excel, it silently corrupts the information. You need to back up your file before doing any work on it. Excel refuses to do proper Unicode, or at least I haven't found the right way to reliably get a Unicode CSV out of it that won't break in third-party tools. Excel does not do versioning natively, and you have to rely on a buggy mishmash of Microsoft-based solutions to do file-based version management. Excel files tend to get emailed around everywhere, and so there's never a single source of data. It has the worst properties of a decentralized architecture without any of the benefits. Data belongs in a relational database. You can use a spreadsheet to manipulate it, but the manipulated data needs to go back into the database. The spreadsheets that do this are programs and they need to be managed as code, going into version control systems.
- david927 11y ago
  Countless, countless businesses use Excel and they all suffer from what you correctly put as the "worst tooling out of any application platform". They're suffering every day and yet where is the desire to alleviate their pain? It doesn't exist. I would expect to see hundreds of competing projects. I see just a few and they're all crippled in some form. I think it's a failure of venture capital. What's funded is often what looks good rather than what is needed. That's my guess but I don't know.
  - jessaustin 11y ago
    It might be that, but it's also a failure on the part of the sufferers to imagine that anything better is possible. They've paid the M$ tax for decades, but spending $50/seat for 3rd-party tooling around excel is a non-starter.
  - vinceguidry 11y ago
    An article someone linked to me a few days ago made a distinction that I think is critical to understand. People don't buy what they need, they only buy what they want. If you want to sell them something they need, you have to make it look like something they want. Nobody wants Excel programming workflow management. But they definitely need it. I can tell you why they don't want it. Most people do not think in terms of infrastructure. Their job is a series of one-off tasks and they see little commonality between these tasks. Constantly fighting fires, never thinking to design a fire-proof building or procedures for preventing fires. You ask them why and the answer's always the same. No time. They're too busy. It's wrong, but they don't have the skill set they need to understand why it's wrong.
    - deegles 11y ago
      It's sort of a practical manifestation of the Dunning-Kruger effect. People underestimate their knowledge of processes and their ability to change them, so they don't.
  - kevinmchugh 11y ago
    There are many startups which exist to replace specific excel-oriented workflows. It's much easier to build and sell a full-featured, vertically-targeted app than to build and sell a better Excel. I've seen this for CRM, accounting, liquidity, ad-purchasing, security vulnerability data. People were thrilled to be rid of Excel and use something that took development out of their hands. The software ends up being more useful, too, when a dedicated team is building a tested, version-controlled application for hundreds of customers.
bdavisx 11y ago
Yep, Excel is the best way for a business person to build an MVP for their needs. Then "real developers" can take that MVP and build a full-blown application if that's what the business needs - often though, Excel is enough - even if it drives the IT people crazy.
bwanab 11y ago
Coding with Excel might actually contribute to a banking system collapse http://www.businessinsider.com/excel-partly-to-blame-for-trading-loss-2013-2?op=1 http://www.businessinsider.com/excel-partly-to-blame-for-tra.... At my firm, we are continuously in the process of formalizing excel sheets into auditable applications that don't give enough degrees of freedom to allow our investors to shoot themselves in the foot.

by elthran 11y ago

dexwiz 11y ago

Excel has a tight development loop. You can see the data and work with it at the same time. No need to compile or run. It's always in debug mode.

felixgallo 11y ago
indeed, probably the most widely deployed functional declarative language on the planet.

bobm_kite9 11y ago

> Well, if you took away Excel, the banking system would collapse. Lovely comment, and so true. And you're right: for a POC it's unstoppable. I was trying to get to the nub of "why is it perfect for a POC, but not for running an enterprise application"? That's kind of my point, though I admit it was a bit clunkily-put.

osullivj 11y ago

Yes - lots of banking software is developed in Excel. I'm referring to the software developed by non developers - by end users. Excel is their IDE of choice. They develop in Excel because vendors and in house IT teams don't meet their needs.

vinceguidry 11y ago

Oh it's real programming, as far as I'm concerned. My problem with Excel is that it has the worst tooling out of any application platform I've ever encountered, and it's subject to the hideous whims of Microsoft on the quality front. When one imports a CSV into Excel, Excel has a nasty tendency to actually change the data based on formatting rules. When you open up a CSV file in Excel, it silently corrupts the information. You need to back up your file before doing any work on it. Excel refuses to do proper Unicode, or at least I haven't found the right way to reliably get a Unicode CSV out of it that won't break in third-party tools. Excel does not do versioning natively, and you have to rely on a buggy mishmash of Microsoft-based solutions to do file-based version management. Excel files tend to get emailed around everywhere, and so there's never a single source of data. It has the worst properties of a decentralized architecture without any of the benefits. Data belongs in a relational database. You can use a spreadsheet to manipulate it, but the manipulated data needs to go back into the database. The spreadsheets that do this are programs and they need to be managed as code, going into version control systems.

david927 11y ago
Countless, countless businesses use Excel and they all suffer from what you correctly put as the "worst tooling out of any application platform". They're suffering every day and yet where is the desire to alleviate their pain? It doesn't exist. I would expect to see hundreds of competing projects. I see just a few and they're all crippled in some form. I think it's a failure of venture capital. What's funded is often what looks good rather than what is needed. That's my guess but I don't know.
- jessaustin 11y ago
  It might be that, but it's also a failure on the part of the sufferers to imagine that anything better is possible. They've paid the M$ tax for decades, but spending $50/seat for 3rd-party tooling around excel is a non-starter.
- vinceguidry 11y ago
  An article someone linked to me a few days ago made a distinction that I think is critical to understand. People don't buy what they need, they only buy what they want. If you want to sell them something they need, you have to make it look like something they want. Nobody wants Excel programming workflow management. But they definitely need it. I can tell you why they don't want it. Most people do not think in terms of infrastructure. Their job is a series of one-off tasks and they see little commonality between these tasks. Constantly fighting fires, never thinking to design a fire-proof building or procedures for preventing fires. You ask them why and the answer's always the same. No time. They're too busy. It's wrong, but they don't have the skill set they need to understand why it's wrong.
  - deegles 11y ago
    It's sort of a practical manifestation of the Dunning-Kruger effect. People underestimate their knowledge of processes and their ability to change them, so they don't.
- kevinmchugh 11y ago
  There are many startups which exist to replace specific excel-oriented workflows. It's much easier to build and sell a full-featured, vertically-targeted app than to build and sell a better Excel. I've seen this for CRM, accounting, liquidity, ad-purchasing, security vulnerability data. People were thrilled to be rid of Excel and use something that took development out of their hands. The software ends up being more useful, too, when a dedicated team is building a tested, version-controlled application for hundreds of customers.

bdavisx 11y ago

Yep, Excel is the best way for a business person to build an MVP for their needs. Then "real developers" can take that MVP and build a full-blown application if that's what the business needs - often though, Excel is enough - even if it drives the IT people crazy.

bwanab 11y ago

Coding with Excel might actually contribute to a banking system collapse http://www.businessinsider.com/excel-partly-to-blame-for-trading-loss-2013-2?op=1 http://www.businessinsider.com/excel-partly-to-blame-for-tra.... At my firm, we are continuously in the process of formalizing excel sheets into auditable applications that don't give enough degrees of freedom to allow our investors to shoot themselves in the foot.