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You say "But corporations do not speak for the actual human beings in organizations", but then you say, "They are not sentient. They do not have their own opini

You say "But corporations do not speak for the actual human beings in organizations", but then you say, "They are not sentient. They do not have their own opinions". Both of your claims can't be true. EDIT: Sorry, down-voters, they can't both be true. Either corporations speak on behalf of actual human beings, or they're sentient financial entities.

mseebach 17y ago
The argument is that when corporations speak, they speak with the voice of the owners of that corporation, and that the amplification the corporation provides is somehow unjustified. Not that this is any different from anything a company does. No matter how much freedom each employee has, they have no freedom to act against the interest of their employer.
- Semiapies 17y ago
  "The argument is that when corporations speak, they speak with the voice of the owners of that corporation, and that the amplification the corporation provides is somehow unjustified." I wish people would honestly make that argument instead of resorting to the prior ridiculous rhetoric. "Not that this is any different from anything a company does." Or any organization.
joubert 17y ago
You're wrong. A company's management speaks on behalf of the company. And not always in the interest of the shareholders, and definitely never in the interest of all the shareholders.
- Semiapies 17y ago
  OK, so we have "management" and a "company", but no humans?
  - joubert 17y ago
    You claimed: "Either corporations speak on behalf of actual human beings, or they're sentient financial entities." Let's take Exxon. http://www.google.com/finance?q=exxon http://www.google.com/finance?q=exxon Which humans does this corporation speak on behalf of? Are they all American citizens, for example? Do you think that matters if, say, Exxon decides to run for a seat in Congress?
    - Semiapies 17y ago
      "Which humans does this corporation speak on behalf of?" Those same people "it" (or in reality, the people within it) acts on behalf of. "Do you think that matters if, say, Exxon decides to run for a seat in Congress?" Why do you dive on this red herring instead of trying to address whatever your real concern is?
      - joubert 17y ago
        With the indirection that corporate structure creates, the following are some of my concerns: 1) You mention "Those same people "it" (or in reality, the people within it) acts on behalf of." a) 'the people within it' --> a company does emphatically not speak for the people within it. This is in stark contrast with a political party or other groups joined by individuals for political purposes b) you could argue for the shareholders --> but, the major shareholders are mostly pension funds etc. Membership to these funds is mandated by employers, with little choice by employees (i.e. most voters). 2) And your 2nd comment: "Why do you dive on this red herring instead of trying to address whatever your real concern is?" The United States Constitution preamble: "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." If a corporations can run for a seat in Congress, and, if they are the voice of shareholders, and these shareholders can be foreign, where does that leave our democracy?
        17y ago
- yummyfajitas 17y ago
  If the management is not speaking in the interest of the shareholders, they are violating their fiduciary duty and should be fired by the board. If the board does not fire them, the shareholders can fire the board. As for the minority shareholders, they agreed that their property (their portion of the company) would be bound by the decision of the majority subject to the restrictions of the corporate charter.
  - joubert 17y ago
    For the majority of the S&P 500, the major shareholders are funds. The people who pay into these funds are employees, who, for practical purposes, don't have a meaningful range of choice or voting power.
    - yummyfajitas 17y ago
      When I signed up for my pension fund, I agreed that money would be spent as directed by the fund managers in a manner consistent with maximizing the size [1] of my investment in 2050. This was my choice. If I disliked this, I could have made no contribution to the fund, or even quit my job. [1] I oversimplify. They try to maximize an objective function which penalizes volatility, particularly volatility at the end of the life of the fund.

mseebach 17y ago

The argument is that when corporations speak, they speak with the voice of the owners of that corporation, and that the amplification the corporation provides is somehow unjustified. Not that this is any different from anything a company does. No matter how much freedom each employee has, they have no freedom to act against the interest of their employer.

Semiapies 17y ago
"The argument is that when corporations speak, they speak with the voice of the owners of that corporation, and that the amplification the corporation provides is somehow unjustified." I wish people would honestly make that argument instead of resorting to the prior ridiculous rhetoric. "Not that this is any different from anything a company does." Or any organization.

joubert 17y ago

You're wrong. A company's management speaks on behalf of the company. And not always in the interest of the shareholders, and definitely never in the interest of all the shareholders.

Semiapies 17y ago
OK, so we have "management" and a "company", but no humans?
- joubert 17y ago
  You claimed: "Either corporations speak on behalf of actual human beings, or they're sentient financial entities." Let's take Exxon. http://www.google.com/finance?q=exxon http://www.google.com/finance?q=exxon Which humans does this corporation speak on behalf of? Are they all American citizens, for example? Do you think that matters if, say, Exxon decides to run for a seat in Congress?
  - Semiapies 17y ago
    "Which humans does this corporation speak on behalf of?" Those same people "it" (or in reality, the people within it) acts on behalf of. "Do you think that matters if, say, Exxon decides to run for a seat in Congress?" Why do you dive on this red herring instead of trying to address whatever your real concern is?
    - joubert 17y ago
      With the indirection that corporate structure creates, the following are some of my concerns: 1) You mention "Those same people "it" (or in reality, the people within it) acts on behalf of." a) 'the people within it' --> a company does emphatically not speak for the people within it. This is in stark contrast with a political party or other groups joined by individuals for political purposes b) you could argue for the shareholders --> but, the major shareholders are mostly pension funds etc. Membership to these funds is mandated by employers, with little choice by employees (i.e. most voters). 2) And your 2nd comment: "Why do you dive on this red herring instead of trying to address whatever your real concern is?" The United States Constitution preamble: "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." If a corporations can run for a seat in Congress, and, if they are the voice of shareholders, and these shareholders can be foreign, where does that leave our democracy?
      - 17y ago
yummyfajitas 17y ago
If the management is not speaking in the interest of the shareholders, they are violating their fiduciary duty and should be fired by the board. If the board does not fire them, the shareholders can fire the board. As for the minority shareholders, they agreed that their property (their portion of the company) would be bound by the decision of the majority subject to the restrictions of the corporate charter.
- joubert 17y ago
  For the majority of the S&P 500, the major shareholders are funds. The people who pay into these funds are employees, who, for practical purposes, don't have a meaningful range of choice or voting power.
  - yummyfajitas 17y ago
    When I signed up for my pension fund, I agreed that money would be spent as directed by the fund managers in a manner consistent with maximizing the size [1] of my investment in 2050. This was my choice. If I disliked this, I could have made no contribution to the fund, or even quit my job. [1] I oversimplify. They try to maximize an objective function which penalizes volatility, particularly volatility at the end of the life of the fund.