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I've solved ~300 puzzles (out of 600) but am able to trigger the ending, so I am finished but not 100% completed yet. I haven't found ANY puzzles where I feel

by mwill 11y ago

I've solved ~300 puzzles (out of 600) but am able to trigger the ending, so I am finished but not 100% completed yet. I haven't found ANY puzzles where I feel like you're guessing at the solution. Every puzzle I've solved has had well defined rules. I don't want to give too much away, but broadly speaking there are two types of puzzles: Those that rely on the symbols, where whats on the screen in front of you is all thats required and those that...don't. The first category, you slowly build up your understanding of the various rules as you progress, and they all play by the same rules. The second category though, the real puzzle is to figure out what you're missing, generally by observation. But once you learn the difference between the puzzles that you can take a face value, and the puzzles where you should look around, it feels much more fair. The only time I felt truly frustrated was the few puzzles that introduce audio as a mechanic. I think deaf players will be unable to 100% this game because of a handful of puzzles, and theres no indication that the piece of the puzzle you're missing is sound.

lowmagnet 11y ago
I've encountered one audio-based puzzle so far, and if I was listening to music, this would have been frustrating. Though, I have to admit, I like giving this game my full attention. I don't mind the lack of music as the environmental audio fits so well in the "whole picture" of the game.
sdrothrock 11y ago
> I think deaf players will be unable to 100% this game because of a handful of puzzles, and theres no indication that the piece of the puzzle you're missing is sound. This is the first time I've seen this mentioned, so thank you. I've been thinking about buying a PS4 just for this game, so that's a major bummer. I hope there's a patch in the future for some kind of visual indicator or subtitle to make it a bit easier.
- umanwizard 11y ago
  He said you couldn't complete the game 100%, not that you couldn't get any enjoyment out of it. You don't need to complete all the puzzles to finish the game. A small minority rely on hearing. (I agree it sucks... trying to be optimistic; not trying to argue with you :) )
- unimpressive 11y ago
  To elaborate on what was said in other replies to this comment. Jonathan Blow has said previously that he got around some of the puzzles being fiendishly hard by not requiring all of them to be completed to get to the end of the game. He didn't want somebody to get stuck on one puzzle and then not be able to see the rest of the game over it, so you should be able to complete the vast majority of the game including the ending just fine without those audio based puzzles.
  - sdrothrock 11y ago
    I've read that, but it's still a bit of a shoddy response to people who want to get 100% or get the rewards for completing non-critical subsections. Imagine if you paid for a book and there were appendices about characters or something extra, but written in a language you didn't know. It would kind of suck. Edit: As a side note, these comments seem to be the internet equivalent of: A: =~#$())##~ B: Sorry, what was that? I couldn't hear you. A: Nevermind, it's not important. Which I think most people would agree is incredibly rude and dismissive.
    - philtar 11y ago
      The alternative is not to include them at all. What benefit does that provide? (You have to play the game to get why he can't give hints)
    - clentaminator 11y ago
      >Imagine if you paid for a book and there were appendices about characters or something extra, but written in a language you didn't know. If you don't already know about it, you may want to check out the book Finnegan's Wake :) Joking aside, I think you're right that there should be some kind of notice somewhere, in-game or out (even on the Steam page) that indicates that some parts of the game are difficult or inaccessible for players with a degree of hearing loss. Even better might be to have an option in the game that turns on an additional visual cue that could augment whatever the original audio cue was. Actually designing it to make sense in the same way would of course be difficult, but I don't doubt that there are enough players that would appreciate that option.
- mwill 11y ago
  Just to clarify a bit, from memory I saw 13 puzzles that relied on sound, there are 600 puzzles in the game, you only need to beat about 250-300 (Could be less) of them to start the end game part. So you can definitely finish the game without sound, but if you're a perfectionist aiming for 100% you'll need to resort to outside help, which does suck. The puzzles don't even have a visual cue to let you know audio is important, so if you're not expecting it these puzzles just seem unsolvable. This and no colour blind support are probably the two biggest criticisms I have of the game.
- DominikR 11y ago
  I would write him a mail, might just be that it wasn't a conscious choice but he really didn't think about this. I must admit that I also sometimes fail to remember making the software I create accessible to deaf or blind persons. It's never because I don't want to, it's just that there's often nobody on the team that has this particular problem and so it is forgotten.
- db48x 11y ago
  Subtitles for those 8 or 10 puzzles would render them trivial; the subtitles would literally need to be the solution to the puzzle written out for you. You'll still enjoy the game even if you skip the little jungle area; the game is structured so that you only have to do about 75% of the "areas" of the island. I know of three puzzles elsewhere that you'd have to skip as well, all of them optional. I think you'll still be able to enjoy the game. On the other hand, there are audio logs scattered about which you might prefer to be able to hear. They don't tell a story though; it's more of an examination of things Jonathan Blow feels are important. I think that's a cool part of the game, even though I suspect that I disagree with him entirely. The elephant in the room is obviously that there's no accommodation for the blind at all.

by mwill 11y ago

lowmagnet 11y ago

I've encountered one audio-based puzzle so far, and if I was listening to music, this would have been frustrating. Though, I have to admit, I like giving this game my full attention. I don't mind the lack of music as the environmental audio fits so well in the "whole picture" of the game.

sdrothrock 11y ago

> I think deaf players will be unable to 100% this game because of a handful of puzzles, and theres no indication that the piece of the puzzle you're missing is sound. This is the first time I've seen this mentioned, so thank you. I've been thinking about buying a PS4 just for this game, so that's a major bummer. I hope there's a patch in the future for some kind of visual indicator or subtitle to make it a bit easier.

umanwizard 11y ago
He said you couldn't complete the game 100%, not that you couldn't get any enjoyment out of it. You don't need to complete all the puzzles to finish the game. A small minority rely on hearing. (I agree it sucks... trying to be optimistic; not trying to argue with you :) )
unimpressive 11y ago
To elaborate on what was said in other replies to this comment. Jonathan Blow has said previously that he got around some of the puzzles being fiendishly hard by not requiring all of them to be completed to get to the end of the game. He didn't want somebody to get stuck on one puzzle and then not be able to see the rest of the game over it, so you should be able to complete the vast majority of the game including the ending just fine without those audio based puzzles.
- sdrothrock 11y ago
  I've read that, but it's still a bit of a shoddy response to people who want to get 100% or get the rewards for completing non-critical subsections. Imagine if you paid for a book and there were appendices about characters or something extra, but written in a language you didn't know. It would kind of suck. Edit: As a side note, these comments seem to be the internet equivalent of: A: =~#$())##~ B: Sorry, what was that? I couldn't hear you. A: Nevermind, it's not important. Which I think most people would agree is incredibly rude and dismissive.
  - philtar 11y ago
    The alternative is not to include them at all. What benefit does that provide? (You have to play the game to get why he can't give hints)
  - clentaminator 11y ago
    >Imagine if you paid for a book and there were appendices about characters or something extra, but written in a language you didn't know. If you don't already know about it, you may want to check out the book Finnegan's Wake :) Joking aside, I think you're right that there should be some kind of notice somewhere, in-game or out (even on the Steam page) that indicates that some parts of the game are difficult or inaccessible for players with a degree of hearing loss. Even better might be to have an option in the game that turns on an additional visual cue that could augment whatever the original audio cue was. Actually designing it to make sense in the same way would of course be difficult, but I don't doubt that there are enough players that would appreciate that option.
mwill 11y ago
Just to clarify a bit, from memory I saw 13 puzzles that relied on sound, there are 600 puzzles in the game, you only need to beat about 250-300 (Could be less) of them to start the end game part. So you can definitely finish the game without sound, but if you're a perfectionist aiming for 100% you'll need to resort to outside help, which does suck. The puzzles don't even have a visual cue to let you know audio is important, so if you're not expecting it these puzzles just seem unsolvable. This and no colour blind support are probably the two biggest criticisms I have of the game.
DominikR 11y ago
I would write him a mail, might just be that it wasn't a conscious choice but he really didn't think about this. I must admit that I also sometimes fail to remember making the software I create accessible to deaf or blind persons. It's never because I don't want to, it's just that there's often nobody on the team that has this particular problem and so it is forgotten.
db48x 11y ago
Subtitles for those 8 or 10 puzzles would render them trivial; the subtitles would literally need to be the solution to the puzzle written out for you. You'll still enjoy the game even if you skip the little jungle area; the game is structured so that you only have to do about 75% of the "areas" of the island. I know of three puzzles elsewhere that you'd have to skip as well, all of them optional. I think you'll still be able to enjoy the game. On the other hand, there are audio logs scattered about which you might prefer to be able to hear. They don't tell a story though; it's more of an examination of things Jonathan Blow feels are important. I think that's a cool part of the game, even though I suspect that I disagree with him entirely. The elephant in the room is obviously that there's no accommodation for the blind at all.