5 ms·

And it is wonderful. It's one of those games that manages to push buttons in your brain you never knew you had, and make you feel like a genius when something

by hbex5 11y ago

And it is wonderful. It's one of those games that manages to push buttons in your brain you never knew you had, and make you feel like a genius when something finally clicks. And it does all this without ever needing to explain anything. Jonathan Blow's enigma variations. A meandering meditation on the means by which humans gain knowledge and understanding of the world, by standing on the shoulders of a hacking minigame. Also it's gorgeous. Did I mention it's BRILLIANT?

amichail 11y ago
Isn't it like those ill-defined puzzles where you need to say what number comes next? Any number can come next.
- azzafazza 11y ago
  Pretty much this. It isn't a very good game. It's padded to kingdom come, there is a lack of motivation to keep going and no music kills any atmosphere it might potentially create.
  - clentaminator 11y ago
    Nothing rude meant by this (honestly), but if the experience of discovering the island, finding and completing the puzzles itself isn't motivating enough then perhaps it's just not the game for you? I understand your point about filler, but the puzzles are the game, and if you're enjoying them then it probably doesn't come across as filler, just more to get stuck in with (though I do wonder whether so many slight variations on a theme are required in certain areas). Hyped it may be, but that doesn't mean that you absolutely have to enjoy it at all costs. There are other games, and other developers :)
- grabcocque 11y ago
  Not even remotely.
  - amichail 11y ago
    Could you elaborate?
- mwill 11y ago
  I've solved ~300 puzzles (out of 600) but am able to trigger the ending, so I am finished but not 100% completed yet. I haven't found ANY puzzles where I feel like you're guessing at the solution. Every puzzle I've solved has had well defined rules. I don't want to give too much away, but broadly speaking there are two types of puzzles: Those that rely on the symbols, where whats on the screen in front of you is all thats required and those that...don't. The first category, you slowly build up your understanding of the various rules as you progress, and they all play by the same rules. The second category though, the real puzzle is to figure out what you're missing, generally by observation. But once you learn the difference between the puzzles that you can take a face value, and the puzzles where you should look around, it feels much more fair. The only time I felt truly frustrated was the few puzzles that introduce audio as a mechanic. I think deaf players will be unable to 100% this game because of a handful of puzzles, and theres no indication that the piece of the puzzle you're missing is sound.
  - lowmagnet 11y ago
    I've encountered one audio-based puzzle so far, and if I was listening to music, this would have been frustrating. Though, I have to admit, I like giving this game my full attention. I don't mind the lack of music as the environmental audio fits so well in the "whole picture" of the game.
  - sdrothrock 11y ago
    > I think deaf players will be unable to 100% this game because of a handful of puzzles, and theres no indication that the piece of the puzzle you're missing is sound. This is the first time I've seen this mentioned, so thank you. I've been thinking about buying a PS4 just for this game, so that's a major bummer. I hope there's a patch in the future for some kind of visual indicator or subtitle to make it a bit easier.
    - umanwizard 11y ago
      He said you couldn't complete the game 100%, not that you couldn't get any enjoyment out of it. You don't need to complete all the puzzles to finish the game. A small minority rely on hearing. (I agree it sucks... trying to be optimistic; not trying to argue with you :) )
- pdabbadabba 11y ago
  I think you may be making the mistake of viewing these puzzles as purely mathematical instead of also psychological. Mathematically its true, of course, that any number can come next in an arbitrary sequence. But its not true that each of the possible interrelations between those numbers is equally likely to be selected by human puzzle designer (*especially a good puzzle designer who is attempting to make the puzzle fun, challenging, but not impossible). Of course, that doesn't mean there is no such thing as a bad puzzle...
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- nilkn 11y ago
  No, I'd actually say it's designed to avoid issues of that nature. In my opinion, while the game derives some (actually rather minimal) inspiration from Myst and Riven, its puzzles are much more structured and logical. This does come at the cost of their not being quite as wholly integrated into the environment as some of Riven's puzzles, for instance, but it also means a lot of the arbitrariness and guessing is gone. (There are environmental connections with the puzzles, just to be clear. The game is simply a lot more careful and conservative with them.)
- lkozma 11y ago
  I think it is a common misconception that in the kind of puzzles you mention any number can come next in an equally meaningful way. There are well-defined (mathematically) and natural ways in which 6 is a better continuation to 1,2,3,4,5,... than say 15 or whatever else.
  - nwhitehead 11y ago
    What's wrong with sequence A096774 (numbers with 9*10^n+7 prime)? Why is sequence A000027 (numbers starting at 1 increasing by 1 each time) better? Because it comes earlier in the encyclopedia of sequences?
    - samatman 11y ago
      A000027 almost certainly has a lower Kolmogorov complexity. Nothing wrong with the other sequence, per se... the maxim "When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras" appiles.
      - ACow_Adonis 11y ago
        Unless you're in Africa? By which I mean, I think it's a common misconception amongst those that argue this is a common misconception that the knowledge which they possess and view as straightforward, natural and obvious, is neither straightforward, natural, or obvious. Common sense is really just another phrase for popular bias...
        ghusbands 11y ago
        The counting numbers are simpler by every feasible measure than the other suggestions.
        progressive_dad 11y ago
        I prefer counting on teeth, but hey, I guess you're a fingers guy.
- hibikir 11y ago
  There are two major kinds of puzzles: 1)Puzzles about getting a solution that follows a set of rules, which can be deduced, and are reused from puzzle to puzzle. The game just checks that the rules are followed, so there is more than one valid solution sometimes. The different solutions might even have different effects. 2)Environmental puzzles, where the right solution is indicated by the environment. Without giving too much away, imagine that there's a line near the puzzle, matching the puzzle's grid, and the solution is just to trace that same line in the puzzle. So there's never an arbitrary rule that you can't figure out. That said, a part that is difficult for some people is that they make assumptions about what the rules of the puzzles are, and the assumptions might be incomplete, or outright wrong. There's typically simple puzzles that are trying to teach you the rules. Part of the game's progression is to find those tutorial puzzles.
  - narrator 11y ago
    Sounds a bit like Raven's progressive matrices, a classic intelligence test.
  - evan_ 11y ago
    > The different solutions might even have different effects. I'm only about 100 puzzles in but so far some of the coolest "aha!" moments have been from this realization.
evancordell 11y ago
I just watched a review yesterday that I thoroughly enjoyed: http://youtu.be/xH7nnPnc56Y http://youtu.be/xH7nnPnc56Y Made me very interested in playing it!
jcl 11y ago
If anyone is interested in how the game's beautiful lighting works, Ignacio Castaño wrote several articles about his work on it: http://www.ludicon.com/castano/blog/tag/witness/ http://www.ludicon.com/castano/blog/tag/witness/
daodedickinson 11y ago
>makes you feel like a genius Blow said having a game make you feel like a genius is a disease, looks like he completely fails to understand his audience again!

by hbex5 11y ago

amichail 11y ago

Isn't it like those ill-defined puzzles where you need to say what number comes next? Any number can come next.

azzafazza 11y ago
Pretty much this. It isn't a very good game. It's padded to kingdom come, there is a lack of motivation to keep going and no music kills any atmosphere it might potentially create.
- clentaminator 11y ago
  Nothing rude meant by this (honestly), but if the experience of discovering the island, finding and completing the puzzles itself isn't motivating enough then perhaps it's just not the game for you? I understand your point about filler, but the puzzles are the game, and if you're enjoying them then it probably doesn't come across as filler, just more to get stuck in with (though I do wonder whether so many slight variations on a theme are required in certain areas). Hyped it may be, but that doesn't mean that you absolutely have to enjoy it at all costs. There are other games, and other developers :)
grabcocque 11y ago
Not even remotely.
- amichail 11y ago
  Could you elaborate?
mwill 11y ago
I've solved ~300 puzzles (out of 600) but am able to trigger the ending, so I am finished but not 100% completed yet. I haven't found ANY puzzles where I feel like you're guessing at the solution. Every puzzle I've solved has had well defined rules. I don't want to give too much away, but broadly speaking there are two types of puzzles: Those that rely on the symbols, where whats on the screen in front of you is all thats required and those that...don't. The first category, you slowly build up your understanding of the various rules as you progress, and they all play by the same rules. The second category though, the real puzzle is to figure out what you're missing, generally by observation. But once you learn the difference between the puzzles that you can take a face value, and the puzzles where you should look around, it feels much more fair. The only time I felt truly frustrated was the few puzzles that introduce audio as a mechanic. I think deaf players will be unable to 100% this game because of a handful of puzzles, and theres no indication that the piece of the puzzle you're missing is sound.
- lowmagnet 11y ago
  I've encountered one audio-based puzzle so far, and if I was listening to music, this would have been frustrating. Though, I have to admit, I like giving this game my full attention. I don't mind the lack of music as the environmental audio fits so well in the "whole picture" of the game.
- sdrothrock 11y ago
  > I think deaf players will be unable to 100% this game because of a handful of puzzles, and theres no indication that the piece of the puzzle you're missing is sound. This is the first time I've seen this mentioned, so thank you. I've been thinking about buying a PS4 just for this game, so that's a major bummer. I hope there's a patch in the future for some kind of visual indicator or subtitle to make it a bit easier.
  - umanwizard 11y ago
    He said you couldn't complete the game 100%, not that you couldn't get any enjoyment out of it. You don't need to complete all the puzzles to finish the game. A small minority rely on hearing. (I agree it sucks... trying to be optimistic; not trying to argue with you :) )
pdabbadabba 11y ago
I think you may be making the mistake of viewing these puzzles as purely mathematical instead of also psychological. Mathematically its true, of course, that any number can come next in an arbitrary sequence. But its not true that each of the possible interrelations between those numbers is equally likely to be selected by human puzzle designer (*especially a good puzzle designer who is attempting to make the puzzle fun, challenging, but not impossible). Of course, that doesn't mean there is no such thing as a bad puzzle...
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
nilkn 11y ago
No, I'd actually say it's designed to avoid issues of that nature. In my opinion, while the game derives some (actually rather minimal) inspiration from Myst and Riven, its puzzles are much more structured and logical. This does come at the cost of their not being quite as wholly integrated into the environment as some of Riven's puzzles, for instance, but it also means a lot of the arbitrariness and guessing is gone. (There are environmental connections with the puzzles, just to be clear. The game is simply a lot more careful and conservative with them.)
lkozma 11y ago
I think it is a common misconception that in the kind of puzzles you mention any number can come next in an equally meaningful way. There are well-defined (mathematically) and natural ways in which 6 is a better continuation to 1,2,3,4,5,... than say 15 or whatever else.
- nwhitehead 11y ago
  What's wrong with sequence A096774 (numbers with 9*10^n+7 prime)? Why is sequence A000027 (numbers starting at 1 increasing by 1 each time) better? Because it comes earlier in the encyclopedia of sequences?
  - samatman 11y ago
    A000027 almost certainly has a lower Kolmogorov complexity. Nothing wrong with the other sequence, per se... the maxim "When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras" appiles.
    - ACow_Adonis 11y ago
      Unless you're in Africa? By which I mean, I think it's a common misconception amongst those that argue this is a common misconception that the knowledge which they possess and view as straightforward, natural and obvious, is neither straightforward, natural, or obvious. Common sense is really just another phrase for popular bias...
      - ghusbands 11y ago
        The counting numbers are simpler by every feasible measure than the other suggestions.
        progressive_dad 11y ago
        I prefer counting on teeth, but hey, I guess you're a fingers guy.
hibikir 11y ago
There are two major kinds of puzzles: 1)Puzzles about getting a solution that follows a set of rules, which can be deduced, and are reused from puzzle to puzzle. The game just checks that the rules are followed, so there is more than one valid solution sometimes. The different solutions might even have different effects. 2)Environmental puzzles, where the right solution is indicated by the environment. Without giving too much away, imagine that there's a line near the puzzle, matching the puzzle's grid, and the solution is just to trace that same line in the puzzle. So there's never an arbitrary rule that you can't figure out. That said, a part that is difficult for some people is that they make assumptions about what the rules of the puzzles are, and the assumptions might be incomplete, or outright wrong. There's typically simple puzzles that are trying to teach you the rules. Part of the game's progression is to find those tutorial puzzles.
- narrator 11y ago
  Sounds a bit like Raven's progressive matrices, a classic intelligence test.
- evan_ 11y ago
  > The different solutions might even have different effects. I'm only about 100 puzzles in but so far some of the coolest "aha!" moments have been from this realization.

evancordell 11y ago

I just watched a review yesterday that I thoroughly enjoyed: http://youtu.be/xH7nnPnc56Y http://youtu.be/xH7nnPnc56Y Made me very interested in playing it!

jcl 11y ago

If anyone is interested in how the game's beautiful lighting works, Ignacio Castaño wrote several articles about his work on it: http://www.ludicon.com/castano/blog/tag/witness/ http://www.ludicon.com/castano/blog/tag/witness/

daodedickinson 11y ago

>makes you feel like a genius Blow said having a game make you feel like a genius is a disease, looks like he completely fails to understand his audience again!