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Is that the guy who was unable to install Ubuntu properly, so he declared that supporting Linux versions of his game is not worth the effort? Color me disintere

by pferde 11y ago

Is that the guy who was unable to install Ubuntu properly, so he declared that supporting Linux versions of his game is not worth the effort? Color me disinterested. "No Tux, no bucks."

newjersey 11y ago
I agree. Here is a relevant Reddit discussion https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxmasterrace/comments/3c508j/my_response_to_jonathan_blows_braid_the_witness/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxmasterrace/comments/3c508j/my_...
- joncampbelldev 11y ago
  Sounds like people are shifting the blame for JB's frustration with linux onto hardware vendors for not providing drivers ... that's not really going to be acceptable to a perfectionist like JB. "Oh here's my game on linux, please address any questions or problems to those shitty hardware vendors" No, he's just going to release it on a platform where he can guarantee compatibility and functionality with minimum effort on his part.
  - jhawk28 11y ago
    Making a game is HARD. Why take on the additional risk of complicated multiplatform when that can be done later.
- fsloth 11y ago
  The post at the top is a pretty horrible rant but the following discussion is surprisingly civil and to the point.
hurricaneSlider 11y ago
I'm 100% sure Jonathan Blow can install Ubuntu. He is writing his own programming language. For a game like that, it just isn't economically feasible to develop for Linux. Especially since the engine was written from scratch. He spent more or less all of the profits on his previous release on this new game. From the videos I've watched about the dev, he is somewhat of a perfectionist. It would likely rankle him to release a subpar experience on a given platform, which given the economic incentives, it would likely be.
- dharma1 11y ago
  I had a quick look at the trailer and it looked to me like it could have been built with Unity or Unreal Engine... wondering why own engine, given the effort to then port the game to other platforms?
  - yoklov 11y ago
    This level of polish would be somewhat herculean to pull off in unity, and was not even close to possible when the game's development was started 8 or so years ago. Unreal maybe, but it also wasn't as viable a choice 8 years ago. Source: I use unity professionally at my day job.
    - dharma1 11y ago
      oh, they've been working on it for 8 years? Yikes
      - agentultra 11y ago
        Game development from scratch is a bit like inventing the universe from the atoms up.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - alowe 11y ago
    The trailer is intentionally vague to avoid spoilers. I thought the same thing playing through the game for the first hour or so until I got to a puzzle that made me realize why they built their own engine. MINOR SPOILERS: Some of the later puzzle mechanics rely on playing with lighting and perspective in a way that seems to me would be difficult to implement in a stock engine.
    - dharma1 11y ago
      ah, interesting, will have to buy to see what all the chatter is about :) I seem to be downvoted to death - the comments weren't meant in a disrespectful way - just wondered why the gargantuan effort with a DIY engine. The game itself looks really interesting.
colinramsay 11y ago
This is going to be one of the most popular games of 2016, and is releasing for Windows and PS4. Compared to those platforms, do you think that the time it would take to get a Linux version up and running would be cost-effective? There are some Linux sales figures kicking around [1] and they generally show that the Linux share is under 3%. [1] https://www.gamingonlinux.com/articles/sales-statistics-for-linux-games-from-different-developers-part-4.5253 https://www.gamingonlinux.com/articles/sales-statistics-for-...
- hellofunk 11y ago
  And OSX. Apparently Macs are the fastest growing segment of the desktop/laptop industry, but they are often the last to get the big games.
  - Tepix 11y ago
    The main reason these days is that Macs don't have good GPUs for games.
    - rangibaby 11y ago
      That's not true. Even current Macs with IGPs can play nearly any game at low settings adequately.
      - fluxquanta 11y ago
        I'm sure game developers are really looking to capture the "low setting adequacy" market.
        rangibaby 11y ago
        They certainly are. Look at the current top 10 for Steam; there are exactly two games, Fallout and GTA, that require anything more than the world's crappiest computer to play. I have no clue about the games not represented on Steam (basically Battlefield and the Star Wars edition of Battlefield), but I bet they follow the same pattern. The Witness has has a peak of less than 5,000 players at one time so far. The top two games (and basically the only active "pro" games at the moment), which together have about one million players playing at any given time are both carefully tuned to run on toasters according to Valve's hardware survey. I like Valve's current micro transaction model. You can buy cosmetic items, but that's it. I can't speak for DOTA2, but in CS:GO they don't impact the game negatively like they did with TF2. Trading from free drops also allows kids and poor people to participate in the economy, which allows them to make more money for Valve than begging mom to buy a $60 game would.
simoncion 11y ago
> Is that the guy who was unable to install Ubuntu properly... Frankly, Ubuntu 15.04 and 15.whatever_the_last_release_was have been really, really, really bad. I say this as a gamer, Linux power user, and sysadmin who's been using various flavors of Linux for ~fifteen years and who's quite happy managing his Gentoo Linux boxes, but really happy when he finds a largely-hands-off distro, because that means he can recommend a distro to his friends. What's more, if you are using Ubuntu 15.latest, Steam doesn't work out of the box. It won't start. You get no error messages or anything. You have to move a bundled copy of -IIRC- glibc out of the way before Steam will work. Reports on the interwebs indicate that the moved file comes back when the Steam client updates itself, so this isn't a permanent fix! Maybe Valve can't be arsed to target anything other than SteamOS, but it's not a good sign when the company that's -arguably- doing the most good for Linux gaming out of anyone out there doesn't ship a client that works on the latest version of one of the more (if not the most) popular Linux distros. I'mma have to make a note to go back and remind myself about how dynamic linking and .so versioning works on Linux. I had thought that the tools to make this shit work correctly were widespread and relatively easy to use, but the state of Linux gaming leads me to question my memory. :/
loudmax 11y ago
That is a pity. We had to wait a few years for Braid to come out on Linux, but now that it's here it works well. Presumably the graphics requirements for The Witness are a lot higher. I'll keep an eye out for The Witness to make it to my desktop.
em3rgent0rdr 11y ago
I'm going to wait for Linux version to buy...that way will incentivize devs to make Linux versions.
- aikah 11y ago
  You're going to have to wait a long time ... the problem is would you develop something on a OS that represents 0.5% of your market ? it often doesn't make sense financially. Things may get better, ironically, since MS seems to be invested in porting its tools and frameworks to Linux, so popular game engines and SDKs might finally be available on the platform.
- slantyyz 11y ago
  > I'm going to wait for Linux version to buy...that way will incentivize devs to make Linux versions. I'm not sure that's going to incentivize anyone, especially if they're making plenty of money on the platforms they chose to release on. Spending your money on existing Linux games in the same genre (and encouraging your Linux friends to as well) is more likely to incentivize devs. At least they can see that a Linux port sells, and they can find sales stats to assess whether the market for a particular genre is large enough to be worth the investment.
  - em3rgent0rdr 11y ago
    Spending money on existing Linux games in the same genre will incentivize devs. By waiting for them to release Linux port, I will then be spending money on the then-existing Linux game. Therefore what I said initially is valid.
    - slantyyz 11y ago
      Your initial point is not valid. All you said was that you're going to wait -- there was no mention of spending on games in the same genre. Inaction (i.e. waiting only) is not easily measured by game developers without spending money or doing additional work on market research or surveys. Waiting by itself incentivizes nothing.
- 11y ago
sandGorgon 11y ago
Jonathan posts on HN. Here was his post defending his position on the poor productivity of Linux game dev - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5125078 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5125078 FYI - I have only used Linux as my main laptop for the past 15 years. But he's right. I had really hoped that Steam Linux would be based on Android or something and build that friendly layer.. I'm still not sure why they went with Debian.
- unixhero 11y ago
  All his arguments from that post are today FOO.
  - JabavuAdams 11y ago
    Do you have any experience in trying to make and sell games? Have you ever been compensated for a self-developed game project? You appear to be completely unaware of the economics of game development. That coupled with the arrogant tone of your comments really makes you sound foolish.
    - unixhero 11y ago
      They are foo because his arguments regarding toolchains, driver stability, distro "stability" are not troublesome in 2016 is it was some years ago. This is a technical discussion, not a discussion of selling. Yes, I am arrogant by the way, I learned not to be afraid of standing tall with my own point of view.
      - JabavuAdams 11y ago
        > This is a technical discussion, not a discussion of selling. Incorrect. The context is one of an indie developer trying to bring a product to market. This is similar to being a one-man startup (before hiring / contracting more staff). It is absolutely essential to make good decisions about scoping the project, marketing the project, and selling the project. It is very common for technically-minded people to get into a pattern of addressing technical objections point-by-point, without realising that the technical objections are not the problem per-se, but just a symptom of a more important concern or problem. If the goal is Linux advocacy, then nit-picking the tech objections isn't really that effective, unless you want to leave a rebuttal for future searchers. What would be more effective would be to try to understand why Linux was not right for this developer, on this project, at that time. > Yes, I am arrogant by the way, I learned not to be afraid of standing tall with my own point of view. Standing up for your beliefs is not the same as arrogance. Not realizing this is a sign of arrogance, and arrogance is not a good thing. It makes it harder to develop an accurate model of the world, and thereby makes it harder take effective actions. EDIT> Part of the hostile reaction you're getting is because of the way you dismissed Jon Blow for not being able to install Linux. This is one of the best game developers out there. It's like calling some Nobel Laureate stupid because she decided not to use some particular niche app that you care about.
egypturnash 11y ago
Some very cursory research suggests that the sales numbers on computer games tend to be about 93% Windows, 5% Mac, and 2% Linux. I'll let you pull your own estimate out of the air for how much extra development time/money supporting a decent cross-section of popular Linux distributions will take. Oh, and don't forget to add in time for testing it, too. This may change if Valve can make the Steam Box happen, but right now it sure doesn't sound like a sound business decision to bother looking for those last few extra bucks from Tux. Honestly I'm surprised anyone releases anything for Linux or for Macs now that I look at the numbers; I suspect we have the rise of cross-platform general-purpose game engines (which this game doesn't rely on) to thank for that.

by pferde 11y ago

Is that the guy who was unable to install Ubuntu properly, so he declared that supporting Linux versions of his game is not worth the effort? Color me disinterested. "No Tux, no bucks."

newjersey 11y ago

I agree. Here is a relevant Reddit discussion https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxmasterrace/comments/3c508j/my_response_to_jonathan_blows_braid_the_witness/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxmasterrace/comments/3c508j/my_...

joncampbelldev 11y ago
Sounds like people are shifting the blame for JB's frustration with linux onto hardware vendors for not providing drivers ... that's not really going to be acceptable to a perfectionist like JB. "Oh here's my game on linux, please address any questions or problems to those shitty hardware vendors" No, he's just going to release it on a platform where he can guarantee compatibility and functionality with minimum effort on his part.
- jhawk28 11y ago
  Making a game is HARD. Why take on the additional risk of complicated multiplatform when that can be done later.
fsloth 11y ago
The post at the top is a pretty horrible rant but the following discussion is surprisingly civil and to the point.

hurricaneSlider 11y ago

I'm 100% sure Jonathan Blow can install Ubuntu. He is writing his own programming language. For a game like that, it just isn't economically feasible to develop for Linux. Especially since the engine was written from scratch. He spent more or less all of the profits on his previous release on this new game. From the videos I've watched about the dev, he is somewhat of a perfectionist. It would likely rankle him to release a subpar experience on a given platform, which given the economic incentives, it would likely be.

dharma1 11y ago
I had a quick look at the trailer and it looked to me like it could have been built with Unity or Unreal Engine... wondering why own engine, given the effort to then port the game to other platforms?
- yoklov 11y ago
  This level of polish would be somewhat herculean to pull off in unity, and was not even close to possible when the game's development was started 8 or so years ago. Unreal maybe, but it also wasn't as viable a choice 8 years ago. Source: I use unity professionally at my day job.
  - dharma1 11y ago
    oh, they've been working on it for 8 years? Yikes
    - agentultra 11y ago
      Game development from scratch is a bit like inventing the universe from the atoms up.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- alowe 11y ago
  The trailer is intentionally vague to avoid spoilers. I thought the same thing playing through the game for the first hour or so until I got to a puzzle that made me realize why they built their own engine. MINOR SPOILERS: Some of the later puzzle mechanics rely on playing with lighting and perspective in a way that seems to me would be difficult to implement in a stock engine.
  - dharma1 11y ago
    ah, interesting, will have to buy to see what all the chatter is about :) I seem to be downvoted to death - the comments weren't meant in a disrespectful way - just wondered why the gargantuan effort with a DIY engine. The game itself looks really interesting.

colinramsay 11y ago

This is going to be one of the most popular games of 2016, and is releasing for Windows and PS4. Compared to those platforms, do you think that the time it would take to get a Linux version up and running would be cost-effective? There are some Linux sales figures kicking around [1] and they generally show that the Linux share is under 3%. [1] https://www.gamingonlinux.com/articles/sales-statistics-for-linux-games-from-different-developers-part-4.5253 https://www.gamingonlinux.com/articles/sales-statistics-for-...

hellofunk 11y ago
And OSX. Apparently Macs are the fastest growing segment of the desktop/laptop industry, but they are often the last to get the big games.
- Tepix 11y ago
  The main reason these days is that Macs don't have good GPUs for games.
  - rangibaby 11y ago
    That's not true. Even current Macs with IGPs can play nearly any game at low settings adequately.
    - fluxquanta 11y ago
      I'm sure game developers are really looking to capture the "low setting adequacy" market.
      - rangibaby 11y ago
        They certainly are. Look at the current top 10 for Steam; there are exactly two games, Fallout and GTA, that require anything more than the world's crappiest computer to play. I have no clue about the games not represented on Steam (basically Battlefield and the Star Wars edition of Battlefield), but I bet they follow the same pattern. The Witness has has a peak of less than 5,000 players at one time so far. The top two games (and basically the only active "pro" games at the moment), which together have about one million players playing at any given time are both carefully tuned to run on toasters according to Valve's hardware survey. I like Valve's current micro transaction model. You can buy cosmetic items, but that's it. I can't speak for DOTA2, but in CS:GO they don't impact the game negatively like they did with TF2. Trading from free drops also allows kids and poor people to participate in the economy, which allows them to make more money for Valve than begging mom to buy a $60 game would.

simoncion 11y ago

> Is that the guy who was unable to install Ubuntu properly... Frankly, Ubuntu 15.04 and 15.whatever_the_last_release_was have been really, really, really bad. I say this as a gamer, Linux power user, and sysadmin who's been using various flavors of Linux for ~fifteen years and who's quite happy managing his Gentoo Linux boxes, but really happy when he finds a largely-hands-off distro, because that means he can recommend a distro to his friends. What's more, if you are using Ubuntu 15.latest, Steam doesn't work out of the box. It won't start. You get no error messages or anything. You have to move a bundled copy of -IIRC- glibc out of the way before Steam will work. Reports on the interwebs indicate that the moved file comes back when the Steam client updates itself, so this isn't a permanent fix! Maybe Valve can't be arsed to target anything other than SteamOS, but it's not a good sign when the company that's -arguably- doing the most good for Linux gaming out of anyone out there doesn't ship a client that works on the latest version of one of the more (if not the most) popular Linux distros. I'mma have to make a note to go back and remind myself about how dynamic linking and .so versioning works on Linux. I had thought that the tools to make this shit work correctly were widespread and relatively easy to use, but the state of Linux gaming leads me to question my memory. :/

loudmax 11y ago

That is a pity. We had to wait a few years for Braid to come out on Linux, but now that it's here it works well. Presumably the graphics requirements for The Witness are a lot higher. I'll keep an eye out for The Witness to make it to my desktop.

em3rgent0rdr 11y ago

I'm going to wait for Linux version to buy...that way will incentivize devs to make Linux versions.

aikah 11y ago
You're going to have to wait a long time ... the problem is would you develop something on a OS that represents 0.5% of your market ? it often doesn't make sense financially. Things may get better, ironically, since MS seems to be invested in porting its tools and frameworks to Linux, so popular game engines and SDKs might finally be available on the platform.
slantyyz 11y ago
> I'm going to wait for Linux version to buy...that way will incentivize devs to make Linux versions. I'm not sure that's going to incentivize anyone, especially if they're making plenty of money on the platforms they chose to release on. Spending your money on existing Linux games in the same genre (and encouraging your Linux friends to as well) is more likely to incentivize devs. At least they can see that a Linux port sells, and they can find sales stats to assess whether the market for a particular genre is large enough to be worth the investment.
- em3rgent0rdr 11y ago
  Spending money on existing Linux games in the same genre will incentivize devs. By waiting for them to release Linux port, I will then be spending money on the then-existing Linux game. Therefore what I said initially is valid.
  - slantyyz 11y ago
    Your initial point is not valid. All you said was that you're going to wait -- there was no mention of spending on games in the same genre. Inaction (i.e. waiting only) is not easily measured by game developers without spending money or doing additional work on market research or surveys. Waiting by itself incentivizes nothing.
11y ago

sandGorgon 11y ago

Jonathan posts on HN. Here was his post defending his position on the poor productivity of Linux game dev - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5125078 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5125078 FYI - I have only used Linux as my main laptop for the past 15 years. But he's right. I had really hoped that Steam Linux would be based on Android or something and build that friendly layer.. I'm still not sure why they went with Debian.

unixhero 11y ago
All his arguments from that post are today FOO.
- JabavuAdams 11y ago
  Do you have any experience in trying to make and sell games? Have you ever been compensated for a self-developed game project? You appear to be completely unaware of the economics of game development. That coupled with the arrogant tone of your comments really makes you sound foolish.
  - unixhero 11y ago
    They are foo because his arguments regarding toolchains, driver stability, distro "stability" are not troublesome in 2016 is it was some years ago. This is a technical discussion, not a discussion of selling. Yes, I am arrogant by the way, I learned not to be afraid of standing tall with my own point of view.
    - JabavuAdams 11y ago
      > This is a technical discussion, not a discussion of selling. Incorrect. The context is one of an indie developer trying to bring a product to market. This is similar to being a one-man startup (before hiring / contracting more staff). It is absolutely essential to make good decisions about scoping the project, marketing the project, and selling the project. It is very common for technically-minded people to get into a pattern of addressing technical objections point-by-point, without realising that the technical objections are not the problem per-se, but just a symptom of a more important concern or problem. If the goal is Linux advocacy, then nit-picking the tech objections isn't really that effective, unless you want to leave a rebuttal for future searchers. What would be more effective would be to try to understand why Linux was not right for this developer, on this project, at that time. > Yes, I am arrogant by the way, I learned not to be afraid of standing tall with my own point of view. Standing up for your beliefs is not the same as arrogance. Not realizing this is a sign of arrogance, and arrogance is not a good thing. It makes it harder to develop an accurate model of the world, and thereby makes it harder take effective actions. EDIT> Part of the hostile reaction you're getting is because of the way you dismissed Jon Blow for not being able to install Linux. This is one of the best game developers out there. It's like calling some Nobel Laureate stupid because she decided not to use some particular niche app that you care about.

egypturnash 11y ago

Some very cursory research suggests that the sales numbers on computer games tend to be about 93% Windows, 5% Mac, and 2% Linux. I'll let you pull your own estimate out of the air for how much extra development time/money supporting a decent cross-section of popular Linux distributions will take. Oh, and don't forget to add in time for testing it, too. This may change if Valve can make the Steam Box happen, but right now it sure doesn't sound like a sound business decision to bother looking for those last few extra bucks from Tux. Honestly I'm surprised anyone releases anything for Linux or for Macs now that I look at the numbers; I suspect we have the rise of cross-platform general-purpose game engines (which this game doesn't rely on) to thank for that.