4 ms·

Don't worry, the free market will solve it. Keep cutting taxes and remove regulations.

by ojii 11y ago

bsbechtel 11y ago
Actually, the failure of a government monopoly left all of these people without a viable alternative. The Flint water crisis was a failure of government, not the free market. It's actually what happens when the government argues that basic necessities are so important, the government needs to handle the provision of them to guarantee everyone has access, until they can't handle it anymore.
- crdoconnor 11y ago
  Water provision is a natural monopoly. If you hand over natural monopolies to the private sector they raise prices and cut costs as much as the regulators will allow them to and pocket the difference as profit. State monopolies are often intentionally neglected or damaged by bought out politicians as a way to make privatization and the subsequent profit extraction more palatable to a suspicious public. That's also where all this "free markets sure are great" propaganda comes from. This is a similar process to what Russia went through in the 90s. They were encouraged to embrace the free market by Harvard "economists" (free market priests) like Larry Summers. They were told that this process would lead to a new age of prosperity for Russia. It didn't. The net result was to haemorrhage their economy and enabled the oligarchs to walk off with billions of dollars in state assets at knock down prices.
  - bsbechtel 11y ago
    Actually, it's not. The idea of a natural monopoly is something that was made up to justify state takeovers of certain key services. If a natural monopoly actually existed, we wouldn't have Google Fiber expanding across the country, because it wouldn't be cost effective to do so. In fact, Google Fiber's biggest impediment to expansion has been government regulators. The same goes with water provision - if it was a natural monopoly, we wouldn't have alternatives such as bottled water available on the market (which thank goodness we do to provide to the citizens of Flint right now). Using Russia as an example of free market failures is like using Communist China as an example of what the free market will do to wages if we don't implement a minimum wage here in the States.
    - crdoconnor 11y ago
      >If a natural monopoly actually existed, we wouldn't have Google Fiber expanding across the country Internet access isn't a natural monopoly, it just has very, very, very, very high barriers to entry. You actually can run multiple cables down the same pipe easily enough (unlike water). It still approximates a monopoly, as can be seen by the fact that the barriers to entry have prevented even a company like Google with exceptionally deep pockets from muscling in. >In fact, Google Fiber's biggest impediment to expansion has been government regulators. Did you really think Verizon and Comcast were going to let their duopoly go without a fight? >The same goes with water provision - if it was a natural monopoly, we wouldn't have alternatives such as bottled water available on the market Bottled water is an entirely different market with a very limited level of substitution with tap water. >Using Russia as an example of free market failures Is entirely appropriate since they were advised by elite "free market economists" (the kind whom you would cite as justification for your opinions) to follow the policy course that they did. Unlike China, which followed the advice of its own (rather smarter) economists.
      - bsbechtel 11y ago
        Fiber internet was installed in my parent's neighborhood a few months ago. It involved multiple crews digging trenches through EVERYONE's backyard, taking more than a month to complete. I don't know where they run multiple cables down the same pipe, but it certainly isn't where my parents live. Back to the original point, somehow or another, people managed to get water before the City of Flint decided it was something they needed to control. The City did not come into being because the City Government had started providing water. Furthermore, the citizens of Flint right now are being forced to pay for water that they can't use, because it is part of their city utility bills. They can't refuse service, unlike a natural monopoly where the customer could still refuse to purchase the product if it wasn't sufficient to meet his or her needs. This is the worst part of a government monopoly, and the risk we all face when the government fails to provide a service it has promised us.
    - ZeroGravitas 11y ago
      I was fascinated by this concept of natural monopoly as a conspiracy theory, I found this article that goes into the details: https://mises.org/library/myth-natural-monopoly https://mises.org/library/myth-natural-monopoly Apparently the solution to multiple gas/phone/electric companies digging up the streets is private ownership of the streets.
  - ZeroGravitas 11y ago
    I sometimes feel like I'm going crazy when I remember that time, and how no-one really mentions it now despite oligarchs being in the news all the time. It was almost certainly done by true-believers, but looked at from a certain angle, it's highly effective financial sabotage, as the oligarchs work to export as much of their wealth as possible out of Russia and into safer countries. All those billions that could have stayed in the average person's pocket and invested into the economy.
  - Shivetya 11y ago
    Quit following the political propaganda. The are not being intentionally neglected or damaged by politicians bought out by those who want to privatize them, that is just pure stupid and political tripe designed to feed the ignorant. The true story is they promises of many city governments far exceeded their means to support all of them so something had to give. From pushing far too many cronies and family members into "administrative jobs - look at many city airports if not schools now where teachers can be a minority" to promises for pensions. Throw in over price government buildings to celebrate some dead politician, ever expanding tax break and services cost breaks to those who support the politician and well, it all is easily found. Hence the money to maintain the infrastructure went elsewhere. Money promised to pensioners was also shorted as much as they could, yet the bloat was kept, the new offices kept, and so on. So the political talking points memo you were reading from is just as much trash as the promises politicians make
    - crdoconnor 11y ago
      >Quit following the political propaganda. The are not being intentionally neglected or damaged by politicians bought out by those who want to privatize them, that is just pure stupid and political tripe designed to feed the ignorant. Oh, well now that you mention it it seems perfectly reasonable for the post office having to prefund retirement benefits for employees who are not born yet, causing massive not-actually-real accounting losses. And nobody would use that as an excuse to... you know... https://www.newsmax.com/Stossel/Privatize-Post-Office-Congress/2013/04/17/id/499910/ https://www.newsmax.com/Stossel/Privatize-Post-Office-Congre...
barney54 11y ago
What does your comment have to do with Flint? In Flint, the state and local government screwed up and you apparently want to talk about free markets? This was a government failure.

Don't worry, the free market will solve it. Keep cutting taxes and remove regulations.

by ojii 11y ago

Don't worry, the free market will solve it. Keep cutting taxes and remove regulations.

Actually, the failure of a government monopoly left all of these people without a viable alternative. The Flint water crisis was a failure of government, not the free market. It's actually what happens when the government argues that basic necessities are so important, the government needs to handle the provision of them to guarantee everyone has access, until they can't handle it anymore.

crdoconnor 11y ago
Water provision is a natural monopoly. If you hand over natural monopolies to the private sector they raise prices and cut costs as much as the regulators will allow them to and pocket the difference as profit. State monopolies are often intentionally neglected or damaged by bought out politicians as a way to make privatization and the subsequent profit extraction more palatable to a suspicious public. That's also where all this "free markets sure are great" propaganda comes from. This is a similar process to what Russia went through in the 90s. They were encouraged to embrace the free market by Harvard "economists" (free market priests) like Larry Summers. They were told that this process would lead to a new age of prosperity for Russia. It didn't. The net result was to haemorrhage their economy and enabled the oligarchs to walk off with billions of dollars in state assets at knock down prices.
- bsbechtel 11y ago
  Actually, it's not. The idea of a natural monopoly is something that was made up to justify state takeovers of certain key services. If a natural monopoly actually existed, we wouldn't have Google Fiber expanding across the country, because it wouldn't be cost effective to do so. In fact, Google Fiber's biggest impediment to expansion has been government regulators. The same goes with water provision - if it was a natural monopoly, we wouldn't have alternatives such as bottled water available on the market (which thank goodness we do to provide to the citizens of Flint right now). Using Russia as an example of free market failures is like using Communist China as an example of what the free market will do to wages if we don't implement a minimum wage here in the States.
  - crdoconnor 11y ago
    >If a natural monopoly actually existed, we wouldn't have Google Fiber expanding across the country Internet access isn't a natural monopoly, it just has very, very, very, very high barriers to entry. You actually can run multiple cables down the same pipe easily enough (unlike water). It still approximates a monopoly, as can be seen by the fact that the barriers to entry have prevented even a company like Google with exceptionally deep pockets from muscling in. >In fact, Google Fiber's biggest impediment to expansion has been government regulators. Did you really think Verizon and Comcast were going to let their duopoly go without a fight? >The same goes with water provision - if it was a natural monopoly, we wouldn't have alternatives such as bottled water available on the market Bottled water is an entirely different market with a very limited level of substitution with tap water. >Using Russia as an example of free market failures Is entirely appropriate since they were advised by elite "free market economists" (the kind whom you would cite as justification for your opinions) to follow the policy course that they did. Unlike China, which followed the advice of its own (rather smarter) economists.
    - bsbechtel 11y ago
      Fiber internet was installed in my parent's neighborhood a few months ago. It involved multiple crews digging trenches through EVERYONE's backyard, taking more than a month to complete. I don't know where they run multiple cables down the same pipe, but it certainly isn't where my parents live. Back to the original point, somehow or another, people managed to get water before the City of Flint decided it was something they needed to control. The City did not come into being because the City Government had started providing water. Furthermore, the citizens of Flint right now are being forced to pay for water that they can't use, because it is part of their city utility bills. They can't refuse service, unlike a natural monopoly where the customer could still refuse to purchase the product if it wasn't sufficient to meet his or her needs. This is the worst part of a government monopoly, and the risk we all face when the government fails to provide a service it has promised us.
  - ZeroGravitas 11y ago
    I was fascinated by this concept of natural monopoly as a conspiracy theory, I found this article that goes into the details: https://mises.org/library/myth-natural-monopoly https://mises.org/library/myth-natural-monopoly Apparently the solution to multiple gas/phone/electric companies digging up the streets is private ownership of the streets.
- ZeroGravitas 11y ago
  I sometimes feel like I'm going crazy when I remember that time, and how no-one really mentions it now despite oligarchs being in the news all the time. It was almost certainly done by true-believers, but looked at from a certain angle, it's highly effective financial sabotage, as the oligarchs work to export as much of their wealth as possible out of Russia and into safer countries. All those billions that could have stayed in the average person's pocket and invested into the economy.
- Shivetya 11y ago
  Quit following the political propaganda. The are not being intentionally neglected or damaged by politicians bought out by those who want to privatize them, that is just pure stupid and political tripe designed to feed the ignorant. The true story is they promises of many city governments far exceeded their means to support all of them so something had to give. From pushing far too many cronies and family members into "administrative jobs - look at many city airports if not schools now where teachers can be a minority" to promises for pensions. Throw in over price government buildings to celebrate some dead politician, ever expanding tax break and services cost breaks to those who support the politician and well, it all is easily found. Hence the money to maintain the infrastructure went elsewhere. Money promised to pensioners was also shorted as much as they could, yet the bloat was kept, the new offices kept, and so on. So the political talking points memo you were reading from is just as much trash as the promises politicians make
  - crdoconnor 11y ago
    >Quit following the political propaganda. The are not being intentionally neglected or damaged by politicians bought out by those who want to privatize them, that is just pure stupid and political tripe designed to feed the ignorant. Oh, well now that you mention it it seems perfectly reasonable for the post office having to prefund retirement benefits for employees who are not born yet, causing massive not-actually-real accounting losses. And nobody would use that as an excuse to... you know... https://www.newsmax.com/Stossel/Privatize-Post-Office-Congress/2013/04/17/id/499910/ https://www.newsmax.com/Stossel/Privatize-Post-Office-Congre...

barney54 11y ago

What does your comment have to do with Flint? In Flint, the state and local government screwed up and you apparently want to talk about free markets? This was a government failure.