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I would think that customers are reasonably sophisticated when it comes to stuff like this, particularly when they are spending real $$$. How difficult is it,

I would think that customers are reasonably sophisticated when it comes to stuff like this, particularly when they are spending real $$$. How difficult is it, for something like brand advertising, to do before/after poll's to discern how effective the dollar spend is in promoting a brand (with conversion to sales, it's even more trivial.) Done properly, the customer doesn't actually care if 99% of the exchange inventory and impressions are fraudulent, as long as they accomplish whatever objectives they set out to. Put more explicitly, if the objective for an advertiser (or, more likely, their agency) is to build awareness of a brand, they can measure a measure awareness among their target group, run a few million dollars of advertising, and then measure awareness again to see the difference. Done with enough customers, and enough programs, you start to get a very clear sense of where the dollar is best spent.

ethanbond 11y ago
Your hand wavy usage of "measure awareness" is the problem. How do you do such a thing? When you're advertising on multiple channels, even if you did have a solid measurement of awareness (you don't), you still wouldn't know what was responsible. This is the appeal behind things like Facebook ads. It seems you have a very clear sense of what return you're getting because there's such precise targeting and tracking. The issue is that neither of those have anything to do with the first portion of your comment: measuring awareness. You still need to measure awareness objectively and no one knows how to do it. The people best equipped and most ready to act like they do, however, is — you guessed it — Facebook and similar ad networks! Besides, the ad industry has been kept afloat with exactly the type of behavior that grandparent describes for decades if not centuries. What makes you think they're more sophisticated now?
- ghshephard 11y ago
  Two ways to measure brand awareness - polling, and are people buying your product. And you run many, many programs on lots of channels in different demographics, and geographies - and see which program is most effective.
  - throwaway198374 11y ago
    The polling is often done by randomly inserting Vizu polls into the page somewhere and hoping someone fills them out. Of course hardly anyone does - who can be bothered? Still, they've managed to establish themselves as a credible third-party verifier (not saying they actually are credible - I know sometimes people running the campaign will fill these out to show that the campaign is working) Also, I'm not saying it's all fraudulent and doesn't work at all - of course if that were the case everyone would know. What I'm saying is that the brand is massively overpaying, because a large percentage of their delivery goes to fraudulent bot traffic. And it's pretty much in everyone's financial interest except the brand's to turn a blind eye. Also, it's important to know how campaigns are actually delivered: firstly, Sales sells something wildly optimistic like delivering 1m impressions a day to 45-50 y/o women in Florida. As time goes on and delivery can't be met we loosen the targeting parameters in order to "deliver in full" even though this delivery is no longer to the customers specifications. We might tell them we're doing that, or we might not and hope we get away with it. Then after the campaign we take whatever numbers we got and create a story out of it that makes us look good. If we're working with an agency we give it to them and they presumably spin it some more before presenting it to the customer.
    - mercer 11y ago
      Okay, so this question is one I'd never ask in 'real life' without knowing you very well first, but I suppose it's different here because you're anonymous and free not to answer. But apologies anyways if it seems rude. Why do you do this work? You clearly know what you're doing; perhaps you're very good. And I won't presume to know your reasons or the underlying belief system that may or may not support it. But from my personal perspective, it sounds like hell to spend my productive days essentially just selling stuff. Is it that you believe in what you're selling? Is it that in your moral framework being good at this job trumps what seems like a bad way to spend your time? I'm truly asking out of curiosity, by the way. I'm a front-end developer and a significant portion of my work, when I work, is essentially dressing up ads with websites that don't add up to much of value (within the parameters of my own perspective on life). So judging you would be hypocrisy. But I'm actively unhappy about it, and any excitement I show involves the craft, and I'm looking into ways to apply my craft in ways meaningful to me. And I'm curious to know how this works for you.

ethanbond 11y ago

Your hand wavy usage of "measure awareness" is the problem. How do you do such a thing? When you're advertising on multiple channels, even if you did have a solid measurement of awareness (you don't), you still wouldn't know what was responsible. This is the appeal behind things like Facebook ads. It seems you have a very clear sense of what return you're getting because there's such precise targeting and tracking. The issue is that neither of those have anything to do with the first portion of your comment: measuring awareness. You still need to measure awareness objectively and no one knows how to do it. The people best equipped and most ready to act like they do, however, is — you guessed it — Facebook and similar ad networks! Besides, the ad industry has been kept afloat with exactly the type of behavior that grandparent describes for decades if not centuries. What makes you think they're more sophisticated now?

ghshephard 11y ago
Two ways to measure brand awareness - polling, and are people buying your product. And you run many, many programs on lots of channels in different demographics, and geographies - and see which program is most effective.
- throwaway198374 11y ago
  The polling is often done by randomly inserting Vizu polls into the page somewhere and hoping someone fills them out. Of course hardly anyone does - who can be bothered? Still, they've managed to establish themselves as a credible third-party verifier (not saying they actually are credible - I know sometimes people running the campaign will fill these out to show that the campaign is working) Also, I'm not saying it's all fraudulent and doesn't work at all - of course if that were the case everyone would know. What I'm saying is that the brand is massively overpaying, because a large percentage of their delivery goes to fraudulent bot traffic. And it's pretty much in everyone's financial interest except the brand's to turn a blind eye. Also, it's important to know how campaigns are actually delivered: firstly, Sales sells something wildly optimistic like delivering 1m impressions a day to 45-50 y/o women in Florida. As time goes on and delivery can't be met we loosen the targeting parameters in order to "deliver in full" even though this delivery is no longer to the customers specifications. We might tell them we're doing that, or we might not and hope we get away with it. Then after the campaign we take whatever numbers we got and create a story out of it that makes us look good. If we're working with an agency we give it to them and they presumably spin it some more before presenting it to the customer.
  - mercer 11y ago
    Okay, so this question is one I'd never ask in 'real life' without knowing you very well first, but I suppose it's different here because you're anonymous and free not to answer. But apologies anyways if it seems rude. Why do you do this work? You clearly know what you're doing; perhaps you're very good. And I won't presume to know your reasons or the underlying belief system that may or may not support it. But from my personal perspective, it sounds like hell to spend my productive days essentially just selling stuff. Is it that you believe in what you're selling? Is it that in your moral framework being good at this job trumps what seems like a bad way to spend your time? I'm truly asking out of curiosity, by the way. I'm a front-end developer and a significant portion of my work, when I work, is essentially dressing up ads with websites that don't add up to much of value (within the parameters of my own perspective on life). So judging you would be hypocrisy. But I'm actively unhappy about it, and any excitement I show involves the craft, and I'm looking into ways to apply my craft in ways meaningful to me. And I'm curious to know how this works for you.