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What I'm curious about is what's stopping a large portion of the population from simply quitting their jobs to live off basic income, thus decreasing the potent

What I'm curious about is what's stopping a large portion of the population from simply quitting their jobs to live off basic income, thus decreasing the potential pool from which taxes to pay for basic income can be extracted? If it really worked out like you say it would, where people with middle or high incomes are no better off, I wonder what they would think when suddenly large swathes of the population are able to live off the dole without busting their humps.

learc83 11y ago
>thus decreasing the potential pool from which taxes to pay for basic income can be extracted. Basic income proposals usually work something like this (numbers all made up, but close to those I've seen): Each person gets something around the poverty level (say $10k -$15k per year). The taxes that are raised to pay for it would increase gradually based on income up so that it would be a wash for someone making $55k a year, and once you start making more than $75k a year, you start paying more. If you look at those numbers anyone who decides they can live off of the basic income was unlikely to have been making enough to pay any federal income tax at all, much less enough to have been contributing to the extra UBI tax. > where people with middle or high incomes are no better off, I wonder what they would think when suddenly large swathes of the population are able to live off the dole without busting their humps. They will be living off the dole at the poverty level, not living middle class lifestyles.
- marknutter 11y ago
  But remember, living off the dole also means not contributing anything back to society. These people could be doing something of value, but are incentivized not to.
  - learc83 11y ago
    It's not really quite that simple though. You have to look at a UBI in comparison to our current system. How many more people will quit their jobs instead of working if we replace our current system with a UBI? Small scale preliminary studies seem to indicate not that many. >But remember, living off the dole also means not contributing anything back to society. These people could be doing something of value, but are incentivized not to. That's not true at all unless you think people on welfare and disability are incapable of contributing anything back to society. Lets say we have a single parent who can't afford day care. He parks his kids in front of the TV, or pawns them off on inattentive relatives, so he can go to McDonald's 30 hours a week and make $8 an hour. I think that he would contribute more to society in the long term by staying home and raising his kids than he does making minimum wage at McDonald's. Then we look at the economic upsides to a UBI. It is likely that a UBI will reduce crime. It will also likely encourage more entrepreneurial risk taking. And like in my previous example, a UBI will allow more parents to stay home and spend time with their children, potentially allowing the children to earn more money in the future.
zurn 11y ago
Countries with generous (compared to USA) per circumstance income transfers don't generally have a big problem with this. People have a pretty basic need to feel useful to society, and for status. It does raise the bargaining position of the employee on the job market somewhat for the low end of the job market. But it's just much better for everybody if cleaners and janitors get respected a little more by their employers and aren't just a pink slip away from the gutter. And UBI will do better in this respect than per circumstance income transfers since you get to keep all the money you earn on top of it.
ascorbic 11y ago
If someone is willing to do this, they are likely to be people who currently are on low incomes and thus unlikely to be paying much tax if any. I think it would have the opposite effect though. In most countries, the welfare system harshly punishes people who do a small amount of work, withdrawing benefit at a very high marginal rate. This is a massive disincentive to finding work. With a basic income, people can for example do voluntary work. People on sickness benefit can gradually try to go back into work, doing a few hours per week. If you can top up your income without being penalised for it I reckon quite a lot of people currently on welfare would start working a little.
jpindar 11y ago
Most people don't want to be poor.

learc83 11y ago

>thus decreasing the potential pool from which taxes to pay for basic income can be extracted. Basic income proposals usually work something like this (numbers all made up, but close to those I've seen): Each person gets something around the poverty level (say $10k -$15k per year). The taxes that are raised to pay for it would increase gradually based on income up so that it would be a wash for someone making $55k a year, and once you start making more than $75k a year, you start paying more. If you look at those numbers anyone who decides they can live off of the basic income was unlikely to have been making enough to pay any federal income tax at all, much less enough to have been contributing to the extra UBI tax. > where people with middle or high incomes are no better off, I wonder what they would think when suddenly large swathes of the population are able to live off the dole without busting their humps. They will be living off the dole at the poverty level, not living middle class lifestyles.

marknutter 11y ago
But remember, living off the dole also means not contributing anything back to society. These people could be doing something of value, but are incentivized not to.
- learc83 11y ago
  It's not really quite that simple though. You have to look at a UBI in comparison to our current system. How many more people will quit their jobs instead of working if we replace our current system with a UBI? Small scale preliminary studies seem to indicate not that many. >But remember, living off the dole also means not contributing anything back to society. These people could be doing something of value, but are incentivized not to. That's not true at all unless you think people on welfare and disability are incapable of contributing anything back to society. Lets say we have a single parent who can't afford day care. He parks his kids in front of the TV, or pawns them off on inattentive relatives, so he can go to McDonald's 30 hours a week and make $8 an hour. I think that he would contribute more to society in the long term by staying home and raising his kids than he does making minimum wage at McDonald's. Then we look at the economic upsides to a UBI. It is likely that a UBI will reduce crime. It will also likely encourage more entrepreneurial risk taking. And like in my previous example, a UBI will allow more parents to stay home and spend time with their children, potentially allowing the children to earn more money in the future.

zurn 11y ago

Countries with generous (compared to USA) per circumstance income transfers don't generally have a big problem with this. People have a pretty basic need to feel useful to society, and for status. It does raise the bargaining position of the employee on the job market somewhat for the low end of the job market. But it's just much better for everybody if cleaners and janitors get respected a little more by their employers and aren't just a pink slip away from the gutter. And UBI will do better in this respect than per circumstance income transfers since you get to keep all the money you earn on top of it.

ascorbic 11y ago

If someone is willing to do this, they are likely to be people who currently are on low incomes and thus unlikely to be paying much tax if any. I think it would have the opposite effect though. In most countries, the welfare system harshly punishes people who do a small amount of work, withdrawing benefit at a very high marginal rate. This is a massive disincentive to finding work. With a basic income, people can for example do voluntary work. People on sickness benefit can gradually try to go back into work, doing a few hours per week. If you can top up your income without being penalised for it I reckon quite a lot of people currently on welfare would start working a little.

jpindar 11y ago

Most people don't want to be poor.