6 ms·

We have to clearly start differentiating between "work", and a "job". You can work hard at something which provides immense satisfaction and personal value (pe

We have to clearly start differentiating between "work", and a "job". You can work hard at something which provides immense satisfaction and personal value (perhaps even value to others). But a job is strictly something you do in exchange for money. A job doesn't necessarily contribute to your self-worth. Meaningful work, does.

johnchristopher 11y ago
Way to miss the point. If you don't have a job, even if you have some kind of meaningful work or hobby on the side, your self-worth will still suffers from that.
- thinkingkong 11y ago
  My point is that if we're going to introduce a concept like basic income then we need to start being really clear about the difference between effort in exchange of money, and effort which contributes to your satisfaction. Not sure how I'm missing the point.
  - johnchristopher 11y ago
    > Not sure how I'm missing the point. Here: > A job doesn't necessarily contribute to your self-worth. Meaningful work, does. No, having a job like the vast majority of others around you (or the supposed ideal) contribute actively to your self-worth way more than have a meaningful hobby or unpaid meaningful work on the side. It has to do with the humane need of feeling integrated in the group. You really have to work hard on yourself to keep your self worth for ten years by not « working » and having only a meaningful job/work/hobby. It's not the job or the hobby or the meaningfulness that matters to your self worth. It's the sense of belonging to the group. With that said, I completely agree with that: > if we're going to introduce a concept like basic income then we need to start being really clear about the difference between effort in exchange of money, and effort which contributes to your satisfaction. Benevolent activities are going to be cast under a different light.
- robertbenjamin 11y ago
  How do you know that?
  - johnchristopher 11y ago
    This ain't wikipedia. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222079910_'Unemployment_Joblessness_Psychological_Well-being_and_Self-esteem_Theory_and_Evidence' https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222079910_'Unemploy... http://lmgtfy.com/?q=self+worth+and+unemployement http://lmgtfy.com/?q=self+worth+and+unemployement
- nathan_f77 11y ago
  How do you know that? That seems like an unfounded conclusion. For example, a lot of people here on Hacker News don't have a "job", but they're building startups and working on products. I wouldn't call that a job, in the sense that they're not performing work in exchange for money. It probably does have some effect on their self-worth, but I don't think it has anything to do with the lack of an employer. And to follow on from that point, someone can be retired and spend 8 hours on art, music, writing, or any other creative endeavor. I don't think those are the kinds of people who live shorter lives after retiring.
  - johnchristopher 11y ago
    > How do you know that? Because I read about it many times in the past ? > That seems like an unfounded conclusions. For example, a lot of people here on Hacker News don't have a "job", but they're building startups and working on products. I wouldn't call that a job, in the sense that they're not performing work in exchange for money. It probably does have some effect on their self-worth, but I don't think it has anything to do with the lack of an employer. That's because you are drinking the koolaid without reading the warnings all over HN about the entrepreneur porn lalaland echo chamber it is at time and succumbing to the game of redefining common words to fit a specific story. Also, very specific and small population sample here. You can't exclude the majority of the population to deny the fact that self-worthiness is linked to employment (edit: whether it is a good thing or not). Here's some unfounded conclusion: - http://www.apa.org/pi/ses/resources/indicator/2012/04/unemployment.aspx http://www.apa.org/pi/ses/resources/indicator/2012/04/unempl... - http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2011/09/19/the-long-unemployed-emotional-effects-of-unemployment/ http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2011/09/19/the-long-un... - http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/columnist/kay/2013/08/31/at-work-self-esteem-depression/2736083/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/columnist/kay/2013/08/31... - https://kar.kent.ac.uk/19046/1/abrams_unemployment_self.pdf https://kar.kent.ac.uk/19046/1/abrams_unemployment_self.pdf - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222079910_'Unemployment_Joblessness_Psychological_Well-being_and_Self-esteem_Theory_and_Evidence' https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222079910_'Unemploy... - http://commonwealthmagazine.org/economy/016-the-hidden-injuries-of-long-term-unemployment/ http://commonwealthmagazine.org/economy/016-the-hidden-injur... - http://www.ncda.org/aws/NCDA/pt/sd/news_article/67151/_PARENT/layout_details_cc/false http://www.ncda.org/aws/NCDA/pt/sd/news_article/67151/_PAREN... > And to follow on from that point, someone can be retired and spend 8 hours on art, music, writing, or any other creative endeavor. I don't think those are the kinds of people who live shorter lives after retiring. But that's the thing. Retirees have a different status to hold than the unemployed. Plus, you forget that the transition from a working class member to a retiree can be really hard.

johnchristopher 11y ago

Way to miss the point. If you don't have a job, even if you have some kind of meaningful work or hobby on the side, your self-worth will still suffers from that.

thinkingkong 11y ago
My point is that if we're going to introduce a concept like basic income then we need to start being really clear about the difference between effort in exchange of money, and effort which contributes to your satisfaction. Not sure how I'm missing the point.
- johnchristopher 11y ago
  > Not sure how I'm missing the point. Here: > A job doesn't necessarily contribute to your self-worth. Meaningful work, does. No, having a job like the vast majority of others around you (or the supposed ideal) contribute actively to your self-worth way more than have a meaningful hobby or unpaid meaningful work on the side. It has to do with the humane need of feeling integrated in the group. You really have to work hard on yourself to keep your self worth for ten years by not « working » and having only a meaningful job/work/hobby. It's not the job or the hobby or the meaningfulness that matters to your self worth. It's the sense of belonging to the group. With that said, I completely agree with that: > if we're going to introduce a concept like basic income then we need to start being really clear about the difference between effort in exchange of money, and effort which contributes to your satisfaction. Benevolent activities are going to be cast under a different light.
robertbenjamin 11y ago
How do you know that?
- johnchristopher 11y ago
  This ain't wikipedia. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222079910_'Unemployment_Joblessness_Psychological_Well-being_and_Self-esteem_Theory_and_Evidence' https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222079910_'Unemploy... http://lmgtfy.com/?q=self+worth+and+unemployement http://lmgtfy.com/?q=self+worth+and+unemployement
nathan_f77 11y ago
How do you know that? That seems like an unfounded conclusion. For example, a lot of people here on Hacker News don't have a "job", but they're building startups and working on products. I wouldn't call that a job, in the sense that they're not performing work in exchange for money. It probably does have some effect on their self-worth, but I don't think it has anything to do with the lack of an employer. And to follow on from that point, someone can be retired and spend 8 hours on art, music, writing, or any other creative endeavor. I don't think those are the kinds of people who live shorter lives after retiring.
- johnchristopher 11y ago
  > How do you know that? Because I read about it many times in the past ? > That seems like an unfounded conclusions. For example, a lot of people here on Hacker News don't have a "job", but they're building startups and working on products. I wouldn't call that a job, in the sense that they're not performing work in exchange for money. It probably does have some effect on their self-worth, but I don't think it has anything to do with the lack of an employer. That's because you are drinking the koolaid without reading the warnings all over HN about the entrepreneur porn lalaland echo chamber it is at time and succumbing to the game of redefining common words to fit a specific story. Also, very specific and small population sample here. You can't exclude the majority of the population to deny the fact that self-worthiness is linked to employment (edit: whether it is a good thing or not). Here's some unfounded conclusion: - http://www.apa.org/pi/ses/resources/indicator/2012/04/unemployment.aspx http://www.apa.org/pi/ses/resources/indicator/2012/04/unempl... - http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2011/09/19/the-long-unemployed-emotional-effects-of-unemployment/ http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2011/09/19/the-long-un... - http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/columnist/kay/2013/08/31/at-work-self-esteem-depression/2736083/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/columnist/kay/2013/08/31... - https://kar.kent.ac.uk/19046/1/abrams_unemployment_self.pdf https://kar.kent.ac.uk/19046/1/abrams_unemployment_self.pdf - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222079910_'Unemployment_Joblessness_Psychological_Well-being_and_Self-esteem_Theory_and_Evidence' https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222079910_'Unemploy... - http://commonwealthmagazine.org/economy/016-the-hidden-injuries-of-long-term-unemployment/ http://commonwealthmagazine.org/economy/016-the-hidden-injur... - http://www.ncda.org/aws/NCDA/pt/sd/news_article/67151/_PARENT/layout_details_cc/false http://www.ncda.org/aws/NCDA/pt/sd/news_article/67151/_PAREN... > And to follow on from that point, someone can be retired and spend 8 hours on art, music, writing, or any other creative endeavor. I don't think those are the kinds of people who live shorter lives after retiring. But that's the thing. Retirees have a different status to hold than the unemployed. Plus, you forget that the transition from a working class member to a retiree can be really hard.