8 ms·

I've always wondered if its actually the joblessness that degrades people's self worth or the job search that must not be going to well and thus keeps them jobl

I've always wondered if its actually the joblessness that degrades people's self worth or the job search that must not be going to well and thus keeps them jobless. Would a person without a job but with a basic income and thus not feeling pressure to get a job experience the same hit to their self worth?

theseatoms 11y ago
The reduced sense of self-worth is likely a result of the cultural stigma against joblessness. Hopefully, merely collecting a universal/basic income will not be similarly stigmatized.
- creshal 11y ago
  How long is it going to take for society to accept it as the new norm? Decades?
  - theseatoms 11y ago
    Five to ten years would be my guess.
- djrogers 11y ago
  > The reduced sense of self-worth is likely a result of the cultural stigma against joblessness. And is this a problem? Societally speaking, shame and stigma are great motivators. If we remove them as motivation for work, will society really be better off?
  - Riseed 11y ago
    Isaac Newton was neither shamed nor stigmatized into developing calculus. Most of that work was done during "idle" time, while his university was closed for the Plague. I daresay society's great achievements are not derived from shame and stigma. What real benefit does society derive from meaningless jobs [1]? We've tried shame and stigma. We should see whether society is better off when the thinkers and doers are free to use their time thinking and doing what they feel called to think and do. [0] http://cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk/view/MS-ADD-04004/1 http://cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk/view/MS-ADD-04004/1 [1] http://strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/ http://strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/
criddell 11y ago
There's not going to be an answer, of course. I think a good source of data could be the population of retired people. I'm pretty sure if I could afford to be retired, I could easily keep busy the rest of my life.
- samstave 11y ago
  And busy is relative. Some stay busy napping. Some stay busy zoning on TV/internet. Some stay busy actually creating stuff. All of them may believe themselves to be "busy"
  - criddell 11y ago
    > Some stay busy zoning on TV/internet. That's a big part of what I wish I had more time for. My list of things I want to watch is long and growing all the time. If I were retired, I would love to be able to sit down and finally watch The Wire or Sopranos.
  - egypturnash 11y ago
    Someone's got to read/watch/read/play/hear/use all that stuff the people who love to make things are going to produce.
- nickff 11y ago
  People who retire earlier die sooner; for each year earlier that one retires, life expectancy is shortened by two months (and the results are robust against different assumptions).[1] This would lead one to believe that working is good for your health. [1] http://freakonomics.com/2012/05/17/retirement-kills-a-new-marketplace-podcast/ http://freakonomics.com/2012/05/17/retirement-kills-a-new-ma...
  - criddell 11y ago
    For me, quantity of life is secondary to quality of life.
  - OldSchoolJohnny 11y ago
nickff 11y ago
People value money they earn more highly than money they are given (, about twice as much from what I've read). In addition to that, many people get a sense of purpose from their work, as they feel they are contributing to something, and through a sense of fellow-feeling with their fellow workers, even though they may find it stressful and/or tedious.
- jgord 11y ago
  There are some forms of work that are useful to society and rewarding, which don't pay enough to live on - volunteering in a hospice or school for example. In this case the person doing the work might both derive self-worth and view the basic income as being 'earned' .. and hence value it as much as a traditional salary [ and not 'waste' it ]. I think basic income could fill a lot of little niches where the market economy is not perfectly efficient in allocating money to value - some of these are being explored thru approaches like Patreon and IndieGoGo and freelancer sites.. but maybe Basic Income is an even better way to reach more of these niches ?
  - Mz 11y ago
    I was a homemaker for two decades. I did lots of volunteer work. I strongly disagree with you. You should Google "emotional labor metafilter". A lot of "caring" work has traditionally been done by women and we are expected to do it for free, out of the goodness of our hearts. If we expect to get compensated for it, we are taken to task as harpies, gold digging whores, etc. I was one of the top three students of my graduating class. I have done many things that enhanced the lives of other people. I have struggled with trying to figure out how to monetize my work. The main thing I need is work that pays adequately and doesn't keep me sick. A lot of people who have benefitted from my volunteer work, public writing, etc. are offended and outraged that I desire financial compensation. I have been homeless for just over four years. The people who expect me to do nice things for them because I "care" generally do not give a damn about that. Plenty of people have made it abundantly clear that I should shut the fuck up about how poor I am and how hard my life is. They seem to think that telling people I am homeless amounts to trying to panhandle them. I am pretty pissed off about it because I am not a beggar. I have only ever asked for help in trying to figure out how to turn the work I do that benefits others into an income source for me. The idea that I deserve compensation gets pissed on, often by the very people who seem to think I am after their money as a beggar. We need to pay for these jobs if we want them done. No one should be expected to live in poverty on an allotment of Basic Income while taking care of others. It is a shitty, shitty expectation. "Fuck you, pay me" should apply equally to the kinds of work you describe. If society NEEDS this work done and it doesn't pay adequately when handled by the private sector, then create a government service. This is why fire and police are public goods, not private sector services.
jacalata 11y ago
Plenty of people voluntarily leave work. I did it last year for eight months to travel. It didn't hurt my self worth, nor those of my friends who've done the same. But if I had wanted a job and not been able to get one, I think that would hurt my self-worth even if I didn't need the money.

theseatoms 11y ago

The reduced sense of self-worth is likely a result of the cultural stigma against joblessness. Hopefully, merely collecting a universal/basic income will not be similarly stigmatized.

creshal 11y ago
How long is it going to take for society to accept it as the new norm? Decades?
- theseatoms 11y ago
  Five to ten years would be my guess.
djrogers 11y ago
> The reduced sense of self-worth is likely a result of the cultural stigma against joblessness. And is this a problem? Societally speaking, shame and stigma are great motivators. If we remove them as motivation for work, will society really be better off?
- Riseed 11y ago
  Isaac Newton was neither shamed nor stigmatized into developing calculus. Most of that work was done during "idle" time, while his university was closed for the Plague. I daresay society's great achievements are not derived from shame and stigma. What real benefit does society derive from meaningless jobs [1]? We've tried shame and stigma. We should see whether society is better off when the thinkers and doers are free to use their time thinking and doing what they feel called to think and do. [0] http://cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk/view/MS-ADD-04004/1 http://cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk/view/MS-ADD-04004/1 [1] http://strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/ http://strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/

criddell 11y ago

There's not going to be an answer, of course. I think a good source of data could be the population of retired people. I'm pretty sure if I could afford to be retired, I could easily keep busy the rest of my life.

samstave 11y ago
And busy is relative. Some stay busy napping. Some stay busy zoning on TV/internet. Some stay busy actually creating stuff. All of them may believe themselves to be "busy"
- criddell 11y ago
  > Some stay busy zoning on TV/internet. That's a big part of what I wish I had more time for. My list of things I want to watch is long and growing all the time. If I were retired, I would love to be able to sit down and finally watch The Wire or Sopranos.
- egypturnash 11y ago
  Someone's got to read/watch/read/play/hear/use all that stuff the people who love to make things are going to produce.
nickff 11y ago
People who retire earlier die sooner; for each year earlier that one retires, life expectancy is shortened by two months (and the results are robust against different assumptions).[1] This would lead one to believe that working is good for your health. [1] http://freakonomics.com/2012/05/17/retirement-kills-a-new-marketplace-podcast/ http://freakonomics.com/2012/05/17/retirement-kills-a-new-ma...
- criddell 11y ago
  For me, quantity of life is secondary to quality of life.
- OldSchoolJohnny 11y ago

nickff 11y ago

People value money they earn more highly than money they are given (, about twice as much from what I've read). In addition to that, many people get a sense of purpose from their work, as they feel they are contributing to something, and through a sense of fellow-feeling with their fellow workers, even though they may find it stressful and/or tedious.

jgord 11y ago
There are some forms of work that are useful to society and rewarding, which don't pay enough to live on - volunteering in a hospice or school for example. In this case the person doing the work might both derive self-worth and view the basic income as being 'earned' .. and hence value it as much as a traditional salary [ and not 'waste' it ]. I think basic income could fill a lot of little niches where the market economy is not perfectly efficient in allocating money to value - some of these are being explored thru approaches like Patreon and IndieGoGo and freelancer sites.. but maybe Basic Income is an even better way to reach more of these niches ?
- Mz 11y ago
  I was a homemaker for two decades. I did lots of volunteer work. I strongly disagree with you. You should Google "emotional labor metafilter". A lot of "caring" work has traditionally been done by women and we are expected to do it for free, out of the goodness of our hearts. If we expect to get compensated for it, we are taken to task as harpies, gold digging whores, etc. I was one of the top three students of my graduating class. I have done many things that enhanced the lives of other people. I have struggled with trying to figure out how to monetize my work. The main thing I need is work that pays adequately and doesn't keep me sick. A lot of people who have benefitted from my volunteer work, public writing, etc. are offended and outraged that I desire financial compensation. I have been homeless for just over four years. The people who expect me to do nice things for them because I "care" generally do not give a damn about that. Plenty of people have made it abundantly clear that I should shut the fuck up about how poor I am and how hard my life is. They seem to think that telling people I am homeless amounts to trying to panhandle them. I am pretty pissed off about it because I am not a beggar. I have only ever asked for help in trying to figure out how to turn the work I do that benefits others into an income source for me. The idea that I deserve compensation gets pissed on, often by the very people who seem to think I am after their money as a beggar. We need to pay for these jobs if we want them done. No one should be expected to live in poverty on an allotment of Basic Income while taking care of others. It is a shitty, shitty expectation. "Fuck you, pay me" should apply equally to the kinds of work you describe. If society NEEDS this work done and it doesn't pay adequately when handled by the private sector, then create a government service. This is why fire and police are public goods, not private sector services.

jacalata 11y ago

Plenty of people voluntarily leave work. I did it last year for eight months to travel. It didn't hurt my self worth, nor those of my friends who've done the same. But if I had wanted a job and not been able to get one, I think that would hurt my self-worth even if I didn't need the money.