7 ms·

I have the definitive impression that the Pythonistas are more interested in this fighting than most other language cultures. I might be wrong, but I really ca

by berntb 17y ago

I have the definitive impression that the Pythonistas are more interested in this fighting than most other language cultures. I might be wrong, but I really can't mention any other group of people trolling Perl discussions. It is the same for Ruby? It really seems strange for a language which got the name from Monthy Python. (-: Is it some inferiority feelings to environments which are fun? :-)

tghw 17y ago
I've found quite the opposite; my experience with Python users has been consistently personable. If anything, the party line seems to be "this is the way we do things, if you like what you see, come on in, if not, no worries". I mean, this whole article is really just a troll post on Python by a Rube (that's what they're called, right?)
- drmock 17y ago
  the party line seems to be "this is the way we do things, if you like what you see, come on in, if not, no worries" That is absolutely not the case; Python is the anti-TMTOWTDI. The Python community is very vocal and explicit about the conventions developers are expected to follow, more so than any other language I'm aware of: PEP 8, Zen of Python, non-stop critiques about whether some code is "pythonic" enough.
  - mcav 17y ago
    There's a difference between "why aren't you using Python?" and "why aren't you following standard Python coding conventions?".
    - drmock 17y ago
      Ah, I see. So what you are tying to say is that the non-stop bashing of Perl, PHP and Ruby from Python developers should be interpreted as just a friendly "if [you don't like python], no worries." After all, one would have to be a "Rube (that's what [Ruby developers are] called, right?)" to think that Python developers aren't friendly to people who don't worship Python.
      - mcav 17y ago
        Nah. Anecdotes are anecdotes.
      - jerf 17y ago
        I just browsed over this entire thread, and you're by far the flamiest person here. There are always bashers. Their existence proves nothing. The question is whether they represent the bulk of the community. It's hard to speak for an entire community, but it is certainly true that the Python community leaders are not into bashing other languages routinely.
        drmock 17y ago
        you're by far the flamiest person here. Flamier than the person who called Ruby developers "Rubes" after claiming Python is friendly to other developers? Interesting. Python community leaders are not into bashing other languages routinely Indeed, this is true. It's unfortunate that so many python developers don't follow suit.
        pyre 17y ago
        Does 'Rube' have a negative connotation attached to it? I mean we're calling Python devs 'Pythonistas,' which I also don't necessarily associate with negative connotations. Maybe I just haven't participated in enough Python-Ruby flamewars to know all of the 'secret' lingo that's only offensive to you if you are already part of that flamewar culture? > Indeed, this is true. It's unfortunate that so many python developers don't follow suit. Do you have any numbers to back any of this up? Is it possible that Python just happens to have a small number of really vocal hyper-proponents that feel the need to bash everything else? Could it just be that you aren't a Python programmer so you take more offense to your language being bashed and therefore notice if more often than others?
        drmock 17y ago
        Does 'Rube' have a negative connotation attached to it? Yes, and it's been a common insult for at least a century: http://www.google.com/dictionary?aq=f&langpair=en|en&hl=en&q=rube http://www.google.com/dictionary?aq=f&langpair=en|en&#38... Do you have any numbers to back any of this up? We don't need to look any further than this thread: 30 points on the initial Ruby/Rails-bashing rant that also insults Ruby developers, 6 points on tghw's comment that insults Ruby developers with outright name-calling. Par for the course. Could it just be that you aren't a Python programmer No, considering I've been using python on and off for almost a decade now. your language Or it could be that there is no "[my] language" and I'm just willing to call out rampant hypocrisy and language-bashing when I see it. Honestly, I find it interesting that people assume someone doesn't use Python just because they call out Team Python on their non-stop trolling and language-bashing. "Either you're with us or against us," apparently. Big surprise.
  - tghw 17y ago
    The Python community is very vocal and explicit about the conventions developers are expected to follow, more so than any other language I'm aware of: PEP 8, Zen of Python, non-stop critiques about whether some code is "pythonic" enough. Yeah, that's the "this is the way we do things" part, but that's a different issue. Things like PEP-8 and a measure of how "Pythonic" something is helps make one of Python's biggest strengths, the "batteries included" easier to accomplish and easier to understand, because there is a consistent standard. Of course, not all code, even in the stdlib, is up to that standard, but it's more consistent than a lot of libraries you'll find. The point I was making, and the difference from a lot of language communities I've seen is that there is little of this hyperbolic "That's not even possible in [insert-language-here]" nonsense. The Python programmers I tend to interact with don't really mind if you don't use Python, because at the end of the day, almost every language has the necessary features to Get Stuff Done.
- jamesbritt 17y ago
  " ... just a troll post on Python by a Rube (that's what they're called, right?)" Speaking of which ...
  - tghw 17y ago
    It was just a joke, no offense intended. Apologies to any Rubyist who was offended.
    - jamesbritt 17y ago
      I don't think anyone was offended, but it's exactly the sort of thing some people like to jump on and say, "See? See? That's what I'm talking about!"
    - apotheon 17y ago
      I love Ruby. I don't really like Python as much (Python and I have irreconcilable philosophical and code-formatting differences). I was not offended. I was, however, saddened by the fact that almost every single time I've seen a Pythonista talk about how nice Pythonistas are, the comment has included a dig at people who use other languages like that. The probability seems to run in the 90%+ range.
drmock 17y ago
Python is a dogmatic language. For the language, this is a good thing, helping it stay clean, simple and yet still powerful. But for the community, it breeds rabid fanboys, just like everything else that's dogmatic.
- eru 17y ago
  I don't know. Haskell is quite dogmatic in some ways. The people on the Haskell cafe mailing list don't strike me as rabid fanboys.
  - codexon 17y ago
    You must be joking. People like Dons run or use a blog spidering program for anything that mentions Haskell. In less than 10 minutes after posting anything remotely negative about Haskell, I have a horde of angry fanboys telling me how I am an idiot.
    - eru 17y ago
      You may be right. That's why I only talked about the stuff I have some experience with, and that's the civilized Haskell cafe mailing list. I guess that may (or may not) show that a single language can be part of different cultures.
    - camccann 17y ago
      Really, now? I can't say I've ever seen dons be anything other than polite and helpful. Not to mention that he's one of the most knowledgeable Haskell programmers out there, especially on the "practical real world use" front.
jrockway 17y ago
I might be wrong, but I really can't mention any other group of people trolling Perl discussions. Everyone is out trolling the Perl discussions. PHP developers hate us, Java developers hate us, Ruby developers hate us, and Python developers hate us. I think this is funny, because we generally don't hate the other languages, we just embrace and extend their good ideas for Perl. (The Perl community has come up with a few good ideas on their own, but the best ideas have been borrowed from other languages. Moose is from Smalltalk and CL; PSGI is from Python; Plack is from Ruby; Catalyst is from Java; etc. I think, in general, the stolen ideas have been improved upon in Perl; I like using Moose a lot more than I like using CLOS -- and I like using CLOS a lot.) The only place outside of the Perl community where I can admit to liking Perl (and not be flamed) is #haskell. But everyone is nice there. (I've even been trolled in real life over my like of Perl. I was going after some girl, who apparently had a friend that was a Java developer. Perl came up, I came up, and it was resolved "he must not be very good at programming if he prefers Perl over Java". Guess who got the girl? Not the Perl programmer.)
- chromatic 17y ago
  > Moose is from Smalltalk and CL... ... and Perl 6.
  - jrockway 17y ago
    Yes, you're right. Adding state to traits is definitely a Perl 6 innovation.
- apotheon 17y ago
  > PHP developers hate us, Java developers hate us, Ruby developers hate us, and Python developers hate us. Wait. Ruby? What? Did you have a bad experience with some Rails people and decide that Ruby developers hate Perl? As someone who loves both Perl and Ruby, I haven't seen any Perl hate from Ruby developers in general. I can't vouch for Rails people, though. There are some serious social dysfunctions in that community. > The only place outside of the Perl community where I can admit to liking Perl (and not be flamed) is #haskell. I haven't gotten into Haskell (yet) -- but I've never gotten any shit on the ruby-talk list for "admitting" that I like Perl. > (I've even been trolled in real life over my like of Perl. I was going after some girl, who apparently had a friend that was a Java developer. Perl came up, I came up, and it was resolved "he must not be very good at programming if he prefers Perl over Java". Guess who got the girl? Not the Perl programmer.) Wow. WTF? I have gotten shit from Pythonistas in person a couple of times for liking Perl, but nothing nearly that bad -- just as I have for preferring FreeBSD over "Linux". In general, the hackers I know dislike Java, so I haven't really had the opportunity to get treated that badly by a Java developer. Maybe I'm just lucky.
apotheon 17y ago
I've seen one Pythonista troll the ruby-talk mailing list. I have no idea whether any Rubyists troll Python's main community venue -- but if there are any, I'm pretty sure they're probably Rails people, which really have their own, separate community.

by berntb 17y ago

tghw 17y ago

I've found quite the opposite; my experience with Python users has been consistently personable. If anything, the party line seems to be "this is the way we do things, if you like what you see, come on in, if not, no worries". I mean, this whole article is really just a troll post on Python by a Rube (that's what they're called, right?)

drmock 17y ago
the party line seems to be "this is the way we do things, if you like what you see, come on in, if not, no worries" That is absolutely not the case; Python is the anti-TMTOWTDI. The Python community is very vocal and explicit about the conventions developers are expected to follow, more so than any other language I'm aware of: PEP 8, Zen of Python, non-stop critiques about whether some code is "pythonic" enough.
- mcav 17y ago
  There's a difference between "why aren't you using Python?" and "why aren't you following standard Python coding conventions?".
  - drmock 17y ago
    Ah, I see. So what you are tying to say is that the non-stop bashing of Perl, PHP and Ruby from Python developers should be interpreted as just a friendly "if [you don't like python], no worries." After all, one would have to be a "Rube (that's what [Ruby developers are] called, right?)" to think that Python developers aren't friendly to people who don't worship Python.
    - mcav 17y ago
      Nah. Anecdotes are anecdotes.
    - jerf 17y ago
      I just browsed over this entire thread, and you're by far the flamiest person here. There are always bashers. Their existence proves nothing. The question is whether they represent the bulk of the community. It's hard to speak for an entire community, but it is certainly true that the Python community leaders are not into bashing other languages routinely.
      - drmock 17y ago
        you're by far the flamiest person here. Flamier than the person who called Ruby developers "Rubes" after claiming Python is friendly to other developers? Interesting. Python community leaders are not into bashing other languages routinely Indeed, this is true. It's unfortunate that so many python developers don't follow suit.
        pyre 17y ago
        Does 'Rube' have a negative connotation attached to it? I mean we're calling Python devs 'Pythonistas,' which I also don't necessarily associate with negative connotations. Maybe I just haven't participated in enough Python-Ruby flamewars to know all of the 'secret' lingo that's only offensive to you if you are already part of that flamewar culture? > Indeed, this is true. It's unfortunate that so many python developers don't follow suit. Do you have any numbers to back any of this up? Is it possible that Python just happens to have a small number of really vocal hyper-proponents that feel the need to bash everything else? Could it just be that you aren't a Python programmer so you take more offense to your language being bashed and therefore notice if more often than others?
        drmock 17y ago
        Does 'Rube' have a negative connotation attached to it? Yes, and it's been a common insult for at least a century: http://www.google.com/dictionary?aq=f&langpair=en|en&hl=en&q=rube http://www.google.com/dictionary?aq=f&langpair=en|en&#38... Do you have any numbers to back any of this up? We don't need to look any further than this thread: 30 points on the initial Ruby/Rails-bashing rant that also insults Ruby developers, 6 points on tghw's comment that insults Ruby developers with outright name-calling. Par for the course. Could it just be that you aren't a Python programmer No, considering I've been using python on and off for almost a decade now. your language Or it could be that there is no "[my] language" and I'm just willing to call out rampant hypocrisy and language-bashing when I see it. Honestly, I find it interesting that people assume someone doesn't use Python just because they call out Team Python on their non-stop trolling and language-bashing. "Either you're with us or against us," apparently. Big surprise.
- tghw 17y ago
  The Python community is very vocal and explicit about the conventions developers are expected to follow, more so than any other language I'm aware of: PEP 8, Zen of Python, non-stop critiques about whether some code is "pythonic" enough. Yeah, that's the "this is the way we do things" part, but that's a different issue. Things like PEP-8 and a measure of how "Pythonic" something is helps make one of Python's biggest strengths, the "batteries included" easier to accomplish and easier to understand, because there is a consistent standard. Of course, not all code, even in the stdlib, is up to that standard, but it's more consistent than a lot of libraries you'll find. The point I was making, and the difference from a lot of language communities I've seen is that there is little of this hyperbolic "That's not even possible in [insert-language-here]" nonsense. The Python programmers I tend to interact with don't really mind if you don't use Python, because at the end of the day, almost every language has the necessary features to Get Stuff Done.
jamesbritt 17y ago
" ... just a troll post on Python by a Rube (that's what they're called, right?)" Speaking of which ...
- tghw 17y ago
  It was just a joke, no offense intended. Apologies to any Rubyist who was offended.
  - jamesbritt 17y ago
    I don't think anyone was offended, but it's exactly the sort of thing some people like to jump on and say, "See? See? That's what I'm talking about!"
  - apotheon 17y ago
    I love Ruby. I don't really like Python as much (Python and I have irreconcilable philosophical and code-formatting differences). I was not offended. I was, however, saddened by the fact that almost every single time I've seen a Pythonista talk about how nice Pythonistas are, the comment has included a dig at people who use other languages like that. The probability seems to run in the 90%+ range.

drmock 17y ago

Python is a dogmatic language. For the language, this is a good thing, helping it stay clean, simple and yet still powerful. But for the community, it breeds rabid fanboys, just like everything else that's dogmatic.

eru 17y ago
I don't know. Haskell is quite dogmatic in some ways. The people on the Haskell cafe mailing list don't strike me as rabid fanboys.
- codexon 17y ago
  You must be joking. People like Dons run or use a blog spidering program for anything that mentions Haskell. In less than 10 minutes after posting anything remotely negative about Haskell, I have a horde of angry fanboys telling me how I am an idiot.
  - eru 17y ago
    You may be right. That's why I only talked about the stuff I have some experience with, and that's the civilized Haskell cafe mailing list. I guess that may (or may not) show that a single language can be part of different cultures.
  - camccann 17y ago
    Really, now? I can't say I've ever seen dons be anything other than polite and helpful. Not to mention that he's one of the most knowledgeable Haskell programmers out there, especially on the "practical real world use" front.

jrockway 17y ago

I might be wrong, but I really can't mention any other group of people trolling Perl discussions. Everyone is out trolling the Perl discussions. PHP developers hate us, Java developers hate us, Ruby developers hate us, and Python developers hate us. I think this is funny, because we generally don't hate the other languages, we just embrace and extend their good ideas for Perl. (The Perl community has come up with a few good ideas on their own, but the best ideas have been borrowed from other languages. Moose is from Smalltalk and CL; PSGI is from Python; Plack is from Ruby; Catalyst is from Java; etc. I think, in general, the stolen ideas have been improved upon in Perl; I like using Moose a lot more than I like using CLOS -- and I like using CLOS a lot.) The only place outside of the Perl community where I can admit to liking Perl (and not be flamed) is #haskell. But everyone is nice there. (I've even been trolled in real life over my like of Perl. I was going after some girl, who apparently had a friend that was a Java developer. Perl came up, I came up, and it was resolved "he must not be very good at programming if he prefers Perl over Java". Guess who got the girl? Not the Perl programmer.)

chromatic 17y ago
> Moose is from Smalltalk and CL... ... and Perl 6.
- jrockway 17y ago
  Yes, you're right. Adding state to traits is definitely a Perl 6 innovation.
apotheon 17y ago
> PHP developers hate us, Java developers hate us, Ruby developers hate us, and Python developers hate us. Wait. Ruby? What? Did you have a bad experience with some Rails people and decide that Ruby developers hate Perl? As someone who loves both Perl and Ruby, I haven't seen any Perl hate from Ruby developers in general. I can't vouch for Rails people, though. There are some serious social dysfunctions in that community. > The only place outside of the Perl community where I can admit to liking Perl (and not be flamed) is #haskell. I haven't gotten into Haskell (yet) -- but I've never gotten any shit on the ruby-talk list for "admitting" that I like Perl. > (I've even been trolled in real life over my like of Perl. I was going after some girl, who apparently had a friend that was a Java developer. Perl came up, I came up, and it was resolved "he must not be very good at programming if he prefers Perl over Java". Guess who got the girl? Not the Perl programmer.) Wow. WTF? I have gotten shit from Pythonistas in person a couple of times for liking Perl, but nothing nearly that bad -- just as I have for preferring FreeBSD over "Linux". In general, the hackers I know dislike Java, so I haven't really had the opportunity to get treated that badly by a Java developer. Maybe I'm just lucky.

apotheon 17y ago

I've seen one Pythonista troll the ruby-talk mailing list. I have no idea whether any Rubyists troll Python's main community venue -- but if there are any, I'm pretty sure they're probably Rails people, which really have their own, separate community.