5 ms·

can you elaborate on that?

by borplk 11y ago

cm2187 11y ago
When I was at university (a few years ago but not that long ago), the majority of the other students only had one idea in mind, becoming a civil servant, doing 9 to 5, job for life, no pressure, lots of holidays and free time to do other things, and early retirement (I am not even kidding, 20yo students looking forward to retirement). Working hard, creating jobs, professional success clearly wasn't on the list. I'd rather be in a society that glorifies entrepreneurship.
- mgkimsal 11y ago
  The people I know that have fallen in to the "entrepreneurship porn" trap all focus on the "no pressure, free time to other things, early retirement" based on the millions they'll earn. No one who's really fallen hard ("we're gonna be the next Facebook") is heading in that direction because they're interested in "creating jobs". And... they may say "working hard" but often the real hard stuff comes up... they fold anyway. I've also known some successful entrepreneurs who aren't afraid of working hard, but even then, professional curiosity, a bug to 'build' and other factors were at play. No one's stated goals were ever "I want to create jobs". The goal is the business. Couple friends of mine run small businesses pulling in a few million/year. Each would be just as happy if they could do it with 5 employees vs 40 employees - "creating jobs" was not their goal - "solving a need in the market" was.
  - cm2187 11y ago
    Yeah but be your own boss is often at the top of the list for entrepreneur porn. It's not just the money, also the lifestyle.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- cousin_it 11y ago
  Computers, the Internet, and the Web were all created by government agencies. The glorification of entrepreneurship seems to be mostly propaganda. It's a bit self-contradictory too, creating jobs while disrupting industries doesn't add up.
- jclos 11y ago
  You make it sound like having different life objectives than you is a shameful thing. What is wrong with some people preferring to invest in time rather than this (very personal) notion of professional success because it makes them happier?
  - cm2187 11y ago
    Good for them. Terrible for society. What if Pasteur had this "can't be bothered, let's go fishing" attitude?
    - jclos 11y ago
      First, I have to admire the audacity of you using a lifelong academic, who is an employee of the Ministry of Education, to further a point about entrepreneurship. Second, show me a proof that there is a societal benefit of having a majority of high risk taking entrepreneurs within a country, or even that any country can sustain an artificially high number of entrepreneurs. Third, if you actually bothered to look up the observatoire de la création d'entreprise you would have seen that the number of created businesses has steadily increased, and is being supported more and more by our lagging, yet trying to evolve, government.
      - cm2187 11y ago
        I was responding to your comment on why it is a good thing that people should not seek professional success.
lgbr 11y ago
In European countries it's common that civil servants achieve a distinct status from an employee. As an employee, your rights are relatively typical (you have a 1 month notification period if you are to be fired or laid off, certain procedures have to be followed in order to fire you). However, once you achieve civil servant status after a few years of being a regular employee, you cannot be fired without serious cause, and therefore your job and your retirement are almost completely secured for the rest of your life.
- eli_gottlieb 11y ago
  Or in other words, civil servants have actual job security and don't have to constantly worry about finding themselves in sudden poverty because of an economic pendulum swing. Whoop de doo?
ralmeida 11y ago
I believe he meant that in France, being a civil servant is kind of a common "dream job" - high pay, little work, near 100% job security, plenty of benefits. Brazil has a similar culture with the "concurseiros" too.
- mercurial 11y ago
  High pay? Not for most jobs, really.
  - ralmeida 11y ago
    You mean for France or for Brazil?
    - mercurial 11y ago
      France. Typically, working for the government means trading salary for job security.
      - ralmeida 11y ago
        Oh, I didn't know that! Here in Brazil, top 50th percentile or so civil servants are likely to be paid about the same as top 10th percentile in the industry (approximating the numbers based on personal knowledge).

can you elaborate on that?

by borplk 11y ago

can you elaborate on that?

When I was at university (a few years ago but not that long ago), the majority of the other students only had one idea in mind, becoming a civil servant, doing 9 to 5, job for life, no pressure, lots of holidays and free time to do other things, and early retirement (I am not even kidding, 20yo students looking forward to retirement). Working hard, creating jobs, professional success clearly wasn't on the list. I'd rather be in a society that glorifies entrepreneurship.

mgkimsal 11y ago
The people I know that have fallen in to the "entrepreneurship porn" trap all focus on the "no pressure, free time to other things, early retirement" based on the millions they'll earn. No one who's really fallen hard ("we're gonna be the next Facebook") is heading in that direction because they're interested in "creating jobs". And... they may say "working hard" but often the real hard stuff comes up... they fold anyway. I've also known some successful entrepreneurs who aren't afraid of working hard, but even then, professional curiosity, a bug to 'build' and other factors were at play. No one's stated goals were ever "I want to create jobs". The goal is the business. Couple friends of mine run small businesses pulling in a few million/year. Each would be just as happy if they could do it with 5 employees vs 40 employees - "creating jobs" was not their goal - "solving a need in the market" was.
- cm2187 11y ago
  Yeah but be your own boss is often at the top of the list for entrepreneur porn. It's not just the money, also the lifestyle.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
cousin_it 11y ago
Computers, the Internet, and the Web were all created by government agencies. The glorification of entrepreneurship seems to be mostly propaganda. It's a bit self-contradictory too, creating jobs while disrupting industries doesn't add up.
jclos 11y ago
You make it sound like having different life objectives than you is a shameful thing. What is wrong with some people preferring to invest in time rather than this (very personal) notion of professional success because it makes them happier?
- cm2187 11y ago
  Good for them. Terrible for society. What if Pasteur had this "can't be bothered, let's go fishing" attitude?
  - jclos 11y ago
    First, I have to admire the audacity of you using a lifelong academic, who is an employee of the Ministry of Education, to further a point about entrepreneurship. Second, show me a proof that there is a societal benefit of having a majority of high risk taking entrepreneurs within a country, or even that any country can sustain an artificially high number of entrepreneurs. Third, if you actually bothered to look up the observatoire de la création d'entreprise you would have seen that the number of created businesses has steadily increased, and is being supported more and more by our lagging, yet trying to evolve, government.
    - cm2187 11y ago
      I was responding to your comment on why it is a good thing that people should not seek professional success.

lgbr 11y ago

In European countries it's common that civil servants achieve a distinct status from an employee. As an employee, your rights are relatively typical (you have a 1 month notification period if you are to be fired or laid off, certain procedures have to be followed in order to fire you). However, once you achieve civil servant status after a few years of being a regular employee, you cannot be fired without serious cause, and therefore your job and your retirement are almost completely secured for the rest of your life.

eli_gottlieb 11y ago
Or in other words, civil servants have actual job security and don't have to constantly worry about finding themselves in sudden poverty because of an economic pendulum swing. Whoop de doo?

ralmeida 11y ago

I believe he meant that in France, being a civil servant is kind of a common "dream job" - high pay, little work, near 100% job security, plenty of benefits. Brazil has a similar culture with the "concurseiros" too.

mercurial 11y ago
High pay? Not for most jobs, really.
- ralmeida 11y ago
  You mean for France or for Brazil?
  - mercurial 11y ago
    France. Typically, working for the government means trading salary for job security.
    - ralmeida 11y ago
      Oh, I didn't know that! Here in Brazil, top 50th percentile or so civil servants are likely to be paid about the same as top 10th percentile in the industry (approximating the numbers based on personal knowledge).