5 ms·

Thank you. Now that you've summarized this, this sounds like a great idea, a good way to kill lock-in on cloud platforms. I don't know why they couldn't write s

Thank you. Now that you've summarized this, this sounds like a great idea, a good way to kill lock-in on cloud platforms. I don't know why they couldn't write something so simple and concise...

vacri 11y ago
Does that not mean that you can then only use the common aspects from the various cloud providers, and miss out on the additional features each supports?
- dsl 11y ago
  The general rule of thumb for building big things that work long term is build anything in-house that you can't source from multiple vendors.
  - brianwawok 11y ago
    * Or get source code for the big thing, so at least if it breaks in 5 years you can fix it if you need to.
  - voidlogic 11y ago
    This 1000x
- Spooky23 11y ago
  That's the difference between startup and big environment. Bells and whistles are nice, but handcuff you. If you need a 10 year business plan for a service, you need to limit your choices. I have systems with 40 year history that need to retain data for 30 year into the future. Different thinking.
  - Tenhundfeld 11y ago
    Honest questions, if you don't mind: - What types of systems are these? - When you say "40 year history", do you mean the system was originally written in the 70's, or do you mean it has data going back to then? - Why do you need to keep data for 30 years? Regulatory reasons? Reporting? Or just long-lived data? I'm not doubting anything you're saying. It's easy to imagine systems with those attributes, say, in banking, insurance, legal records, etc. I'm just curious about your specific case. :) Long after the logic of your system has been replaced, the data will live on. It's something I think people tend to undervalue.
    - Spooky23 11y ago
      No problem -- I'm really passionate about this topic! .gov stuff. Every state in the union has social services systems that were stood up in the 60s and 70s, and have or are being transitioned over time from whatever mainframe they were in to modern stuff. Usually the long term stuff is retained. These folks deal with situations like disabled children who become wards of the state. Their records need to exist well until those children are in their 40s. Thats just one example -- Public works projects are built with 50+ year lifespans, and many of those records are expected to exist for at least that long. There's also a whole historical responsibility thing that I think will become more important. You can develop a deep understanding of how a governor or Mayor made certain decisions going back to the American revolution (my county has records of the legislative body from the Dutch colonial period). Digitalization has erased a lot of that -- in many cases we cannot read data from the 1980s. I think issues like this are already starting to appear on a small/personal scale -- when my grandfather died in 1980s, all of his business records, personal records, pictures, etc were on paper somewhere in his home. You could sift through and keep important things. What do you do when the only protection your data in Dropbox/et al is one missed credit card transaction away from oblivion?
      - Tenhundfeld 11y ago
        Cool. Thanks. BTW, I think you're 100% correct about this becoming more important / more of a visible problem. On a small scale, it's something I wrestle with often. For example, I love the convenience of buying a book on my Kindle, but I'm reminded of the joy of wandering through my grandparents' library and wonder if my daughter (and so on) will be able to have a similar experience – what happens to those my Amazon purchases after I'm gone? Another example is that I keep a sporadic journal in Evernote. Should I really be printing out those writings in case I have a curious descendant? I've enjoyed reading letters and journals of ancestors. On the other hand, digitalization has obvious benefits too. But we have to be deliberate in our curation and storage format. For example, it's great that correspondence (email) is now automatically archived rather than it being a tedious process (carbon copy, hand-copying, etc.). But how many people backup their email out of their cloud provider to a personally owned copy in a human-readable format? I actually do backup my Gmail account occasionally. But I doubt my wife knows where it is. Or if she'd be able to look past the XML format. And even if she did, there are literally millions of emails in there from mailing lists and work stuff and spam and whatever. The percentage of actual meaningful correspondence is unbelievably low. I don't know. It's a big problem, I think.
stonogo 11y ago
...kill lock-in, as long as everyone in the whole world acts like an OpenStack interface. Not interested.
- voidlogic 11y ago
  So their is no standard on how to present your cloud to the world ATM. I think you would be happy that widely used open-source project like OpenStacks interface is being adopted. I'm sure if you want OneOps to support a non-OpenStack interface that should be possible too, they already support Microsoft Azure for example.
- noja 11y ago
  They have to start somewhere don't they?

Thank you. Now that you've summarized this, this sounds like a great idea, a good way to kill lock-in on cloud platforms. I don't know why they couldn't write something so simple and concise...

vacri 11y ago

Does that not mean that you can then only use the common aspects from the various cloud providers, and miss out on the additional features each supports?

dsl 11y ago
The general rule of thumb for building big things that work long term is build anything in-house that you can't source from multiple vendors.
- brianwawok 11y ago
  * Or get source code for the big thing, so at least if it breaks in 5 years you can fix it if you need to.
- voidlogic 11y ago
  This 1000x
Spooky23 11y ago
That's the difference between startup and big environment. Bells and whistles are nice, but handcuff you. If you need a 10 year business plan for a service, you need to limit your choices. I have systems with 40 year history that need to retain data for 30 year into the future. Different thinking.
- Tenhundfeld 11y ago
  Honest questions, if you don't mind: - What types of systems are these? - When you say "40 year history", do you mean the system was originally written in the 70's, or do you mean it has data going back to then? - Why do you need to keep data for 30 years? Regulatory reasons? Reporting? Or just long-lived data? I'm not doubting anything you're saying. It's easy to imagine systems with those attributes, say, in banking, insurance, legal records, etc. I'm just curious about your specific case. :) Long after the logic of your system has been replaced, the data will live on. It's something I think people tend to undervalue.
  - Spooky23 11y ago
    No problem -- I'm really passionate about this topic! .gov stuff. Every state in the union has social services systems that were stood up in the 60s and 70s, and have or are being transitioned over time from whatever mainframe they were in to modern stuff. Usually the long term stuff is retained. These folks deal with situations like disabled children who become wards of the state. Their records need to exist well until those children are in their 40s. Thats just one example -- Public works projects are built with 50+ year lifespans, and many of those records are expected to exist for at least that long. There's also a whole historical responsibility thing that I think will become more important. You can develop a deep understanding of how a governor or Mayor made certain decisions going back to the American revolution (my county has records of the legislative body from the Dutch colonial period). Digitalization has erased a lot of that -- in many cases we cannot read data from the 1980s. I think issues like this are already starting to appear on a small/personal scale -- when my grandfather died in 1980s, all of his business records, personal records, pictures, etc were on paper somewhere in his home. You could sift through and keep important things. What do you do when the only protection your data in Dropbox/et al is one missed credit card transaction away from oblivion?
    - Tenhundfeld 11y ago
      Cool. Thanks. BTW, I think you're 100% correct about this becoming more important / more of a visible problem. On a small scale, it's something I wrestle with often. For example, I love the convenience of buying a book on my Kindle, but I'm reminded of the joy of wandering through my grandparents' library and wonder if my daughter (and so on) will be able to have a similar experience – what happens to those my Amazon purchases after I'm gone? Another example is that I keep a sporadic journal in Evernote. Should I really be printing out those writings in case I have a curious descendant? I've enjoyed reading letters and journals of ancestors. On the other hand, digitalization has obvious benefits too. But we have to be deliberate in our curation and storage format. For example, it's great that correspondence (email) is now automatically archived rather than it being a tedious process (carbon copy, hand-copying, etc.). But how many people backup their email out of their cloud provider to a personally owned copy in a human-readable format? I actually do backup my Gmail account occasionally. But I doubt my wife knows where it is. Or if she'd be able to look past the XML format. And even if she did, there are literally millions of emails in there from mailing lists and work stuff and spam and whatever. The percentage of actual meaningful correspondence is unbelievably low. I don't know. It's a big problem, I think.

stonogo 11y ago

...kill lock-in, as long as everyone in the whole world acts like an OpenStack interface. Not interested.

voidlogic 11y ago
So their is no standard on how to present your cloud to the world ATM. I think you would be happy that widely used open-source project like OpenStacks interface is being adopted. I'm sure if you want OneOps to support a non-OpenStack interface that should be possible too, they already support Microsoft Azure for example.
noja 11y ago
They have to start somewhere don't they?