4 ms·

I live in an area with all kinds of automated toll cameras. I get unexpected bills in the mail all the time for simply going over a bridge or unknowingly drivi

I live in an area with all kinds of automated toll cameras. I get unexpected bills in the mail all the time for simply going over a bridge or unknowingly driving in the 'premium' fee lane. Lose a little mail, wait a little time, and bam you're a violator. It's so common as to be a normal thing that people pick up traffic fines.

Alupis 11y ago
> It's so common as to be a normal thing that people pick up traffic fines. And so we should just not try to collect on legally owed fines imposed for breaking the law? > Lose a little mail, wait a little time, and bam you're a violator If you had a due date to pay a fine... and you didn't pay that fine by the due date... then yes, you're a violator. Not sure how that's not clear.
- phil21 11y ago
  You're missing the point. Of course he has to pay. The punishment of spending a night (or weekend, if you get unlucky) in jail so you can see a judge in the morning is disproportionate to either losing or neglecting to pay a small fine. It should not be the choice between go to jail for the night, or pay a third party private company an extra 25%. Basically why does this exist? Those that can afford to generally pay these fines eventually when they go to renew tabs/get pulled over/whatever. Those that can't afford them won't pay them either way, and this just makes their already shitty lives shittier by likely putting them out of work. There were times I got to work and back barely making ends meet when I had outstanding warrants for unpaid tickets. I did what I had to do to feed my family, got back on my feet, and paid them off. Automated scanners at every turn would have put me out of work, and minimum out of the bottom rungs of the career I currently enjoy. At some point you need to stop kicking people while their down, and use a little common sense. Extorting them another 25% or ruining their lives is ridiculous. I agree you need a way to go after scofflaws, but the they are a very small minority in a very wide sea of folks kind of caught up in a system they are unlikely to get out of. If you think Payday loan stores are bad, just get in debt to the government.
  - Karunamon 11y ago
    It should not be the choice between go to jail for the night, or pay a third party private company an extra 25%. Considering how it works in literally every other state, where you're arrested with no ifs ans or buts if you have outstanding violations on your record (and have let them lapse that far)... Okay, you want to remove the ability for people to pay the fines on the spot? Because that is literally the only difference here. An option where one did not previously exist. Now let me try to get in front of this thread. The answer to people being between a rock and a hard place with regard to traffic fines is, quite simply, to not get them in the first place, something which many people are able to do remarkably well. This is not a popular statement of fact, the response to which is usually a list of edge cases about how someone didn't see they were in the HOV lane, or rolled through the stop sign or did something else because "everyone else does it", or whatever. Okay, what's your answer to that? Don't give poor people tickets for breaking the law / fine them less? Bzzt. Unconstitutional on its face because equal protection, regardless of how you view the 99%/1% class warfare issue. So it sounds like we're attacking this from the wrong side. The problem is not that perfectly legitimate fines are legally assessed and Bad Things happen to you when you don't pay them. That is the system working as it's supposed to. I agree you need a way to go after scofflaws, but the they are a very small minority The cavalier attitude with which people treat basic rules of the road would appear to indicate otherwise. You (again, random example) roll through a stop sign because you don't think a cop is going to see it and the extra couple of seconds are that important, you've rolled the dice with full knowledge and consent. Same thing if you're not paying attention and miss something you're obligated to not miss. Well, it sucks, but you're in control of a multi-ton hunk of high speed metal and paying attention to your surroundings is kind of a big deal. Sometimes the dice don't go your way. I'm not sure it's possible to concoct a law that is both constitutional in the sense of "the same laws/penalties for everyone" and also adaptable to meet the needs of the violators. Look at it this way - self driving cars are coming sooner rather than later, and most of these things won't be a problem anymore.
    - marshray 11y ago
      > Okay, you want to remove the ability for people to pay the fines on the spot? Somehow taxi drivers manage to accept mobile payments without a 25% surcharge.
- mywittyname 11y ago
  We are subtly turning everyone into a criminal without their knowledge. It's pretty common to be fined for an infraction without immediate notification (red light / speed cameras, etc). The system is 100% effective at levying the fines, but not 100% effective at notifying people that they've been fined. People absolutely do get wrongfully arrested or detained because of clerical errors related to fines.
- jimbobimbo 11y ago
  The intent is not clear: did they not pay because they want to "stick it to the man" or because the mail was lost (no uncommon, especially in bad neighborhoods)?
katbyte 11y ago
> unknowingly driving in the 'premium' fee lane Where do yo live? i've never heard of such a thing.
- marshray 11y ago
  East side Seattle metro: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Tolling/405/ http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Tolling/405/

Alupis 11y ago

> It's so common as to be a normal thing that people pick up traffic fines. And so we should just not try to collect on legally owed fines imposed for breaking the law? > Lose a little mail, wait a little time, and bam you're a violator If you had a due date to pay a fine... and you didn't pay that fine by the due date... then yes, you're a violator. Not sure how that's not clear.

phil21 11y ago
You're missing the point. Of course he has to pay. The punishment of spending a night (or weekend, if you get unlucky) in jail so you can see a judge in the morning is disproportionate to either losing or neglecting to pay a small fine. It should not be the choice between go to jail for the night, or pay a third party private company an extra 25%. Basically why does this exist? Those that can afford to generally pay these fines eventually when they go to renew tabs/get pulled over/whatever. Those that can't afford them won't pay them either way, and this just makes their already shitty lives shittier by likely putting them out of work. There were times I got to work and back barely making ends meet when I had outstanding warrants for unpaid tickets. I did what I had to do to feed my family, got back on my feet, and paid them off. Automated scanners at every turn would have put me out of work, and minimum out of the bottom rungs of the career I currently enjoy. At some point you need to stop kicking people while their down, and use a little common sense. Extorting them another 25% or ruining their lives is ridiculous. I agree you need a way to go after scofflaws, but the they are a very small minority in a very wide sea of folks kind of caught up in a system they are unlikely to get out of. If you think Payday loan stores are bad, just get in debt to the government.
- Karunamon 11y ago
  It should not be the choice between go to jail for the night, or pay a third party private company an extra 25%. Considering how it works in literally every other state, where you're arrested with no ifs ans or buts if you have outstanding violations on your record (and have let them lapse that far)... Okay, you want to remove the ability for people to pay the fines on the spot? Because that is literally the only difference here. An option where one did not previously exist. Now let me try to get in front of this thread. The answer to people being between a rock and a hard place with regard to traffic fines is, quite simply, to not get them in the first place, something which many people are able to do remarkably well. This is not a popular statement of fact, the response to which is usually a list of edge cases about how someone didn't see they were in the HOV lane, or rolled through the stop sign or did something else because "everyone else does it", or whatever. Okay, what's your answer to that? Don't give poor people tickets for breaking the law / fine them less? Bzzt. Unconstitutional on its face because equal protection, regardless of how you view the 99%/1% class warfare issue. So it sounds like we're attacking this from the wrong side. The problem is not that perfectly legitimate fines are legally assessed and Bad Things happen to you when you don't pay them. That is the system working as it's supposed to. I agree you need a way to go after scofflaws, but the they are a very small minority The cavalier attitude with which people treat basic rules of the road would appear to indicate otherwise. You (again, random example) roll through a stop sign because you don't think a cop is going to see it and the extra couple of seconds are that important, you've rolled the dice with full knowledge and consent. Same thing if you're not paying attention and miss something you're obligated to not miss. Well, it sucks, but you're in control of a multi-ton hunk of high speed metal and paying attention to your surroundings is kind of a big deal. Sometimes the dice don't go your way. I'm not sure it's possible to concoct a law that is both constitutional in the sense of "the same laws/penalties for everyone" and also adaptable to meet the needs of the violators. Look at it this way - self driving cars are coming sooner rather than later, and most of these things won't be a problem anymore.
  - marshray 11y ago
    > Okay, you want to remove the ability for people to pay the fines on the spot? Somehow taxi drivers manage to accept mobile payments without a 25% surcharge.
mywittyname 11y ago
We are subtly turning everyone into a criminal without their knowledge. It's pretty common to be fined for an infraction without immediate notification (red light / speed cameras, etc). The system is 100% effective at levying the fines, but not 100% effective at notifying people that they've been fined. People absolutely do get wrongfully arrested or detained because of clerical errors related to fines.
jimbobimbo 11y ago
The intent is not clear: did they not pay because they want to "stick it to the man" or because the mail was lost (no uncommon, especially in bad neighborhoods)?

katbyte 11y ago

> unknowingly driving in the 'premium' fee lane Where do yo live? i've never heard of such a thing.

marshray 11y ago
East side Seattle metro: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Tolling/405/ http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Tolling/405/