11 ms·

Sad for the modding community. The entire ecosystem is based on recompiling and editing/inserting Java.

by xd1936 11y ago

swah 11y ago
I had never considered this. Very interesting.
dawnbreez 11y ago
I sincerely hope the modding API isn't terrible. You can't do a lot worse than Forge--especially with LexManos running the show, his terrible decisions and demands for respect are killing the modding scene--but doing better would be great.
- gravypod 11y ago
  It's wonderful to see someone else who know's Lex for who he truly is. It's crazy, one of my friends to manages a large plugin is banned from the channel for mentioning "Lex" in the channel, not even attempting to talk to him/ping him. I've got lots of things to say about the minecraft modding community from end to end having done some stuff in the background of both sides. From development, to server management, to being an end user of all this. I think that the only hope for a good API is to actually have an API. Bukkit was the correct way to go from the start, forge is not an API. If anyone want's to know funny stories about bukit, forge, minecraft modding, and all you can get in contact with me and I'd be glad to talk about it all.
  - Macha 11y ago
    > I think that the only hope for a good API is to actually have an API. Bukkit was the correct way to go from the start, forge is not an API. However, most of the more interesting mods still could not possibly exist for Bukkit, due to it's server side status, so I can't see any MS API faring any better than Bukkit
    - Pyrodogg 11y ago
      The current front runner in this niche is Sponge. "Sponge is a combination of a new API (based off of Spout/Flow’s APIs) implemented on top of Forge, with assistance from other parts of Minecraft’s modding community (Glowstone, Cauldron, Spout, etc.). It will be both a server and client API, and its target user base is pretty much anyone that wants to mod their game, including server owners. However, we may focus on the server-side portion first. We invite any developer to help out." https://www.spongepowered.org/ https://www.spongepowered.org/ Development seems quite active on Github.
      - gravypod 11y ago
        It might look nice from far away, but there is a vain of drama that runs through the body of the team. The team is indecisive and has that "ooh look, something shiny" mindset. They are even making some of the VERY basic yet devastating problems that Bukkit made at the start. Again, there is more to go into than I can fit into the scope of this comment chain.
    - gravypod 11y ago
      I think there are two things at play here. Firstly, I'd say that the reason Forge mods do such amazing things is because of the dedication of developers. Forge basically gives you an API to monkey patching and nothing else. Bukkit failed because of copyright laws. Despite this, people still use bukkit. It was powerful, easy, and had an intuitive API. It made programming seem fun to me.
      - Macha 11y ago
        I guess my problem is similar to my problem with the new extensions model for Firefox. It might be much smoother for 95% of developers with the new API's. But the remaining 5% of cases go from "pretty hard" to totally impossible. With Bukkit's API, something like buildcraft's pipes with all its appeal would have been impossible. Or the only reason something like tree style tabs is going to be possible with the new fx extensions API is because it already exists so they know they need to make that possible. If Buildcraft or Tree tabs did not exist from the fully open ability for an add-on to modify their host app, I find it unlikely the APIs to support them would ever exist.
  - dawnbreez 11y ago
    It's not hard to see what the problem is. When the first rule of the IRC is "Lex is god, respect him or else", there's an issue. And that's not getting into the fit he threw over JSON models.
  - voltagex_ 11y ago
    My contact email is in my profile. Do you think there's any way for Minecraft modding to survive? I think it'd be a great loss for it to go away, even if it is an insane situation for 1-2 people to control the entire scene (Lex and cpw). I tried MineTest but it really (!) wasn't as easy to get started modding it as with Forge-Gradle. You can see my little mod at https://github.com/voltagex/minecraft-rebridge https://github.com/voltagex/minecraft-rebridge. I want to go back to i, one day.
    - dawnbreez 11y ago
      How in the hell did Minetest manage to out-terrible Forge? My experience with Forge has been nothing but pain. Then again, part of that is that I'm a clumsy coder, and part of that is Forge's "support" channels.
monk_e_boy 11y ago
Amazing for kids who will finally be able to play minecraft at school. The current version runs at less than 10fps on crappy school computers. It's so bad.
- exprI 11y ago
  How can this be true? Hasn't everyone been “aware” since the '90s that with intelligent JITing Java is at least as fast as C++, if not faster.
webwielder2 11y ago
Y'know, they could add actual support for modding into the damned thing.
- jonursenbach 11y ago
  They have been, though, with command blocks.
  - mintplant 11y ago
    Command blocks don't even come close to replicating the capabilities a mod has, and they are't portable across maps.
tshannon 11y ago
And for any platform that isn't windows.
- cptskippy 11y ago
  Ah yes, the dread C++ lock-in to Windows.
  - pjmlp 11y ago
    Psst. It is ok to use compiler specific extensions and semantics, as long as it isn't MSVC++.
    - cptskippy 11y ago
      I didn't think it was acceptable to use MSVC++ at all.
      - pjmlp 11y ago
        But it is ok to use gcc or clang specific extensions and semantics, then.
        cptskippy 11y ago
        I didn't say that either, I honestly couldn't give you an informed opinion on the subject. I just remember about 10-15 years ago when you'd be shot if even suggested using MSVC++, I wasn't aware that opinions had changed regarding it.
        pjmlp 11y ago
        That was never the opinion on Windows, except when Borland C++ and C++ Builder were still an option.
  - thescriptkiddie 11y ago
    There might as well be if you don't have the source code.
craigching 11y ago
Certainly a huge concern, however, an opportunity to actually support the modding scene and possibly even get support for other languages, particularly a language like python which would make it easier for kids to create mods.
kels 11y ago
They brought on the Bukkit team years ago to develop the API but that never came about. https://mojang.com/2012/02/minecraft-team-strengthened/ https://mojang.com/2012/02/minecraft-team-strengthened/
cookiecaper 11y ago
I've been thinking about MC's mod community as I recently picked Minecraft back up for a couple of days, and just how impossible any of it would've been if Microsoft had owned the property from the outset. MCP would've been C&D'd in a matter of weeks and that'd've been the end of it. Today, while MS has mostly left the existing mod community alone, I'm sure they wouldn't be friendly to someone who created an intermediary server that allowed the different MC platforms to interact, especially as they enabled this feature only for Windows 10 machines<->Mobile in June. Let's hope this becomes Minetest's time to shine.
- riskable 11y ago
  > Let's hope this becomes Minetest's time to shine. Yes! I've been waiting for this forever. The first time I ran Minetest on a crappy laptop years ago it was as smooth as butter and I couldn't help but think, "Why is no one playing this?!" I think the primary reason very few people play Minetest is because of marketing and piss poor default gameplay. If you just run Minetest without adding any of the (nearly built-in) mods you'll get an odd-looking Minecraft-like world stuck in "creative mode" (which is boring). If, however, you take the time (lots of time) to fiddle around with it and put together a collection of decent mods it becomes a good game! The fact that it is written in C and has a proper modding API (in Lua!) should be drawing people in like crazy but for some reason it isn't.
  - Teckla 11y ago
    I think the primary reason very few people play Minetest is because of marketing and piss poor default gameplay. I agree. "Vanilla" Minetest needs monsters, villages, villagers, fortresses, more ores, more items, etc. in order to compete with "vanilla" Minecraft. It's so very close to being a Minecraft killer...but there seems to be strong resistance to adding more to the base game. Unfortunately, right now, every query about vanilla Minetest being a little "barren" results in replies like, "Install some mods." sigh
    - cookiecaper 11y ago
      This is actually an opportunity. Minetest is free software (LGPL). Someone needs to fork it, put a little bit of polish into it, load some mods into the default distro, and publish it as "MinecraftKiller v1.0" in a mass-marketable, easy-to-install fashion. Console ports would also be ideal, as they were instrumental to Minecraft's success.
dspillett 11y ago
One would hope they've had the good sense to build in a good API for mods, otherwise they have missed a key point and a large chunk of the audience will be somewhere between losing interest and becoming irate. Of course even if the plugin/mod architecture is good getting existing mods converted will be a struggle, particularly where the original coder considered them complete and is now busy working on something else new & exciting.
- pdkl95 11y ago
  It's Microsoft - it is entirely against their culture and history as a business to allow anything they control to be cross platform. This is just the usual embrace-and-extend crap. Promise faster Minecraft now, and never get around to building the Linux and Mac versions. I suspect that "always get updates" promise I paid for years ago will be ignored. > good sense to build in a good API for mods LOL. That API already exists - it's called Forge. We gave up caring about an official "mod API" many years ago. "Where's The Modding API?" - Yogscast, Dec 20, 2013 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-zthYFjk6s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-zthYFjk6s
  - jdmichal 11y ago
    > It's Microsoft - it is entirely against their culture and history as a business to allow anything they control to be cross platform. This is just the usual embrace-and-extend crap. This is such an antiquated view at this point in time. This is the same Microsoft that is taking .NET open-source and cross-platform, including ASP.Next. This is the same Microsoft that just open-sourced their JavaScript engine and integrated it with Node.js. This is the same Microsoft developing the open-source and cross-platform Visual Studio Code. This is the same Microsoft that writes more apps with better user experiences for iOS and Android than it does for Windows Mobile 8 and so far 10.
    - viraptor 11y ago
      Let's wait a bit before praising MS as an open company. They properly changed just last year. If it only takes one management change to do that, we may end up with another reversal in a year or two. It would be really easy for them to just say "well, that experiment didn't work out; no more published code".
coldpie 11y ago
It'll be interesting to see what they do about modding, since they absolutely MUST support it. The power of modding the Java version was that you could relatively easily replace in any part of the game. With a modding API, you're restricted to whatever the API allows you to do. I wonder if this going to create some bizarre fork situation, with an MS-approved-and-bound C++ version and a legally questionable, community-maintained legacy Java version.
Lawtonfogle 11y ago
Honestly, if they don't add in enough modding support, the game may very well split, with the last Java editions never receiving official updates but with all modding continued to be done to them. It'll be odd since the source itself can't be split, but I don't see the modded experience dying. Personally, modded minecraft is the only type I continue to pay. If I didn't have the choice of mods, I'd rather go with one of the better options among the infinite number of minecraft clones.

Sad for the modding community. The entire ecosystem is based on recompiling and editing/inserting Java.

by xd1936 11y ago

Sad for the modding community. The entire ecosystem is based on recompiling and editing/inserting Java.

swah 11y ago

I had never considered this. Very interesting.

dawnbreez 11y ago

I sincerely hope the modding API isn't terrible. You can't do a lot worse than Forge--especially with LexManos running the show, his terrible decisions and demands for respect are killing the modding scene--but doing better would be great.

gravypod 11y ago
It's wonderful to see someone else who know's Lex for who he truly is. It's crazy, one of my friends to manages a large plugin is banned from the channel for mentioning "Lex" in the channel, not even attempting to talk to him/ping him. I've got lots of things to say about the minecraft modding community from end to end having done some stuff in the background of both sides. From development, to server management, to being an end user of all this. I think that the only hope for a good API is to actually have an API. Bukkit was the correct way to go from the start, forge is not an API. If anyone want's to know funny stories about bukit, forge, minecraft modding, and all you can get in contact with me and I'd be glad to talk about it all.
- Macha 11y ago
  > I think that the only hope for a good API is to actually have an API. Bukkit was the correct way to go from the start, forge is not an API. However, most of the more interesting mods still could not possibly exist for Bukkit, due to it's server side status, so I can't see any MS API faring any better than Bukkit
  - Pyrodogg 11y ago
    The current front runner in this niche is Sponge. "Sponge is a combination of a new API (based off of Spout/Flow’s APIs) implemented on top of Forge, with assistance from other parts of Minecraft’s modding community (Glowstone, Cauldron, Spout, etc.). It will be both a server and client API, and its target user base is pretty much anyone that wants to mod their game, including server owners. However, we may focus on the server-side portion first. We invite any developer to help out." https://www.spongepowered.org/ https://www.spongepowered.org/ Development seems quite active on Github.
    - gravypod 11y ago
      It might look nice from far away, but there is a vain of drama that runs through the body of the team. The team is indecisive and has that "ooh look, something shiny" mindset. They are even making some of the VERY basic yet devastating problems that Bukkit made at the start. Again, there is more to go into than I can fit into the scope of this comment chain.
  - gravypod 11y ago
    I think there are two things at play here. Firstly, I'd say that the reason Forge mods do such amazing things is because of the dedication of developers. Forge basically gives you an API to monkey patching and nothing else. Bukkit failed because of copyright laws. Despite this, people still use bukkit. It was powerful, easy, and had an intuitive API. It made programming seem fun to me.
    - Macha 11y ago
      I guess my problem is similar to my problem with the new extensions model for Firefox. It might be much smoother for 95% of developers with the new API's. But the remaining 5% of cases go from "pretty hard" to totally impossible. With Bukkit's API, something like buildcraft's pipes with all its appeal would have been impossible. Or the only reason something like tree style tabs is going to be possible with the new fx extensions API is because it already exists so they know they need to make that possible. If Buildcraft or Tree tabs did not exist from the fully open ability for an add-on to modify their host app, I find it unlikely the APIs to support them would ever exist.
- dawnbreez 11y ago
  It's not hard to see what the problem is. When the first rule of the IRC is "Lex is god, respect him or else", there's an issue. And that's not getting into the fit he threw over JSON models.
- voltagex_ 11y ago
  My contact email is in my profile. Do you think there's any way for Minecraft modding to survive? I think it'd be a great loss for it to go away, even if it is an insane situation for 1-2 people to control the entire scene (Lex and cpw). I tried MineTest but it really (!) wasn't as easy to get started modding it as with Forge-Gradle. You can see my little mod at https://github.com/voltagex/minecraft-rebridge https://github.com/voltagex/minecraft-rebridge. I want to go back to i, one day.
  - dawnbreez 11y ago
    How in the hell did Minetest manage to out-terrible Forge? My experience with Forge has been nothing but pain. Then again, part of that is that I'm a clumsy coder, and part of that is Forge's "support" channels.

monk_e_boy 11y ago

Amazing for kids who will finally be able to play minecraft at school. The current version runs at less than 10fps on crappy school computers. It's so bad.

exprI 11y ago
How can this be true? Hasn't everyone been “aware” since the '90s that with intelligent JITing Java is at least as fast as C++, if not faster.

webwielder2 11y ago

Y'know, they could add actual support for modding into the damned thing.

jonursenbach 11y ago
They have been, though, with command blocks.
- mintplant 11y ago
  Command blocks don't even come close to replicating the capabilities a mod has, and they are't portable across maps.

tshannon 11y ago

And for any platform that isn't windows.

cptskippy 11y ago
Ah yes, the dread C++ lock-in to Windows.
- pjmlp 11y ago
  Psst. It is ok to use compiler specific extensions and semantics, as long as it isn't MSVC++.
  - cptskippy 11y ago
    I didn't think it was acceptable to use MSVC++ at all.
    - pjmlp 11y ago
      But it is ok to use gcc or clang specific extensions and semantics, then.
      - cptskippy 11y ago
        I didn't say that either, I honestly couldn't give you an informed opinion on the subject. I just remember about 10-15 years ago when you'd be shot if even suggested using MSVC++, I wasn't aware that opinions had changed regarding it.
        pjmlp 11y ago
        That was never the opinion on Windows, except when Borland C++ and C++ Builder were still an option.
- thescriptkiddie 11y ago
  There might as well be if you don't have the source code.

craigching 11y ago

Certainly a huge concern, however, an opportunity to actually support the modding scene and possibly even get support for other languages, particularly a language like python which would make it easier for kids to create mods.

kels 11y ago

They brought on the Bukkit team years ago to develop the API but that never came about. https://mojang.com/2012/02/minecraft-team-strengthened/ https://mojang.com/2012/02/minecraft-team-strengthened/

cookiecaper 11y ago

I've been thinking about MC's mod community as I recently picked Minecraft back up for a couple of days, and just how impossible any of it would've been if Microsoft had owned the property from the outset. MCP would've been C&D'd in a matter of weeks and that'd've been the end of it. Today, while MS has mostly left the existing mod community alone, I'm sure they wouldn't be friendly to someone who created an intermediary server that allowed the different MC platforms to interact, especially as they enabled this feature only for Windows 10 machines<->Mobile in June. Let's hope this becomes Minetest's time to shine.

riskable 11y ago
> Let's hope this becomes Minetest's time to shine. Yes! I've been waiting for this forever. The first time I ran Minetest on a crappy laptop years ago it was as smooth as butter and I couldn't help but think, "Why is no one playing this?!" I think the primary reason very few people play Minetest is because of marketing and piss poor default gameplay. If you just run Minetest without adding any of the (nearly built-in) mods you'll get an odd-looking Minecraft-like world stuck in "creative mode" (which is boring). If, however, you take the time (lots of time) to fiddle around with it and put together a collection of decent mods it becomes a good game! The fact that it is written in C and has a proper modding API (in Lua!) should be drawing people in like crazy but for some reason it isn't.
- Teckla 11y ago
  I think the primary reason very few people play Minetest is because of marketing and piss poor default gameplay. I agree. "Vanilla" Minetest needs monsters, villages, villagers, fortresses, more ores, more items, etc. in order to compete with "vanilla" Minecraft. It's so very close to being a Minecraft killer...but there seems to be strong resistance to adding more to the base game. Unfortunately, right now, every query about vanilla Minetest being a little "barren" results in replies like, "Install some mods." sigh
  - cookiecaper 11y ago
    This is actually an opportunity. Minetest is free software (LGPL). Someone needs to fork it, put a little bit of polish into it, load some mods into the default distro, and publish it as "MinecraftKiller v1.0" in a mass-marketable, easy-to-install fashion. Console ports would also be ideal, as they were instrumental to Minecraft's success.

dspillett 11y ago

One would hope they've had the good sense to build in a good API for mods, otherwise they have missed a key point and a large chunk of the audience will be somewhere between losing interest and becoming irate. Of course even if the plugin/mod architecture is good getting existing mods converted will be a struggle, particularly where the original coder considered them complete and is now busy working on something else new & exciting.

pdkl95 11y ago
It's Microsoft - it is entirely against their culture and history as a business to allow anything they control to be cross platform. This is just the usual embrace-and-extend crap. Promise faster Minecraft now, and never get around to building the Linux and Mac versions. I suspect that "always get updates" promise I paid for years ago will be ignored. > good sense to build in a good API for mods LOL. That API already exists - it's called Forge. We gave up caring about an official "mod API" many years ago. "Where's The Modding API?" - Yogscast, Dec 20, 2013 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-zthYFjk6s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-zthYFjk6s
- jdmichal 11y ago
  > It's Microsoft - it is entirely against their culture and history as a business to allow anything they control to be cross platform. This is just the usual embrace-and-extend crap. This is such an antiquated view at this point in time. This is the same Microsoft that is taking .NET open-source and cross-platform, including ASP.Next. This is the same Microsoft that just open-sourced their JavaScript engine and integrated it with Node.js. This is the same Microsoft developing the open-source and cross-platform Visual Studio Code. This is the same Microsoft that writes more apps with better user experiences for iOS and Android than it does for Windows Mobile 8 and so far 10.
  - viraptor 11y ago
    Let's wait a bit before praising MS as an open company. They properly changed just last year. If it only takes one management change to do that, we may end up with another reversal in a year or two. It would be really easy for them to just say "well, that experiment didn't work out; no more published code".

coldpie 11y ago

It'll be interesting to see what they do about modding, since they absolutely MUST support it. The power of modding the Java version was that you could relatively easily replace in any part of the game. With a modding API, you're restricted to whatever the API allows you to do. I wonder if this going to create some bizarre fork situation, with an MS-approved-and-bound C++ version and a legally questionable, community-maintained legacy Java version.

Lawtonfogle 11y ago

Honestly, if they don't add in enough modding support, the game may very well split, with the last Java editions never receiving official updates but with all modding continued to be done to them. It'll be odd since the source itself can't be split, but I don't see the modded experience dying. Personally, modded minecraft is the only type I continue to pay. If I didn't have the choice of mods, I'd rather go with one of the better options among the infinite number of minecraft clones.