5 ms·

Your statement should have an "or" instead of an "and". Ex: MDMA does not have high dependence but does require an increased dosage due to plateaus

johnw11 11y ago
Also, isn't MDMA highly toxic if used frequently? Drug forums seem to recommend the use of MDMA no more often than once every two weeks.
- mirekrusin 11y ago
  I don't know about frequent uses but I remember reading research paper which said that high doses are toxic, permanently damaging brain - so it's definitely not a good idea to take too many in too short time.
- CoryG89 11y ago
  MDMA does not form a physical dependence. In fact, if you keep taking it, it will stop working altogether eventually, regardless of an increased dose. There have been many bullshit studies with predetermined agendas and bad methodologies which have claimed that MDMA is neurotoxic. Whenever more responsible, un-biased studies are done, they usually show it is actually less "toxic" than alcohol. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/broadband/tx/drugs/ http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/broadband...
  - DanBC 11y ago
    > they usually show it is actually less "toxic" than alcohol. That's not saying much. A jab in the eye with a sharp stick is less toxic than alcohol, but it's not a good idea.
    - coldtea 11y ago
      Well, if you can consume a decent dose of MDMA every day for all your life, like you can with alcohol (e.g. a glass or two of wine with your meal), without adverse effects, as tons of millions of people do with alcohol (e.g. in Spain, Greece, France, etc), then I don't see what's the concern.
      - DanBC 11y ago
        You might be over-estimating how much alcohol the average French person drinks, or under-estimating the harm that results tot he regular drinkers. "a glass or two of wine with your meal" "every day" is unequivocally harmful. It's a dangerous, pernicious myth (mostly promoted by alcohol companies) that daily alcohol is some how healthy. A small number of French people drink very heavily. A bit less than 20% of the French population drinks wine daily. This contributes to the 49,000 or so who die of alcohol related disease each year.
        coldtea 11y ago
        >You might be over-estimating how much alcohol the average French person drinks, or under-estimating the harm that results tot he regular drinkers. Well, I know how much people back in my village drink, and I probably underestimate it. As for effects, they merely live to 80-90 and still manage to work on the fields and such. >"a glass or two of wine with your meal" "every day" is unequivocally harmful. It's a dangerous, pernicious myth (mostly promoted by alcohol companies) that daily alcohol is some how healthy. Actually daily alcohol has been the norm for very long living populations, including this famed one, which I've met and seen personally: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103744881 http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1037448... http://processedfreeamerica.org/resources/health-news/817-the-island-of-icaria-dietary-lessons-from-the-longest-lived-people http://processedfreeamerica.org/resources/health-news/817-th... Where: "the Icarian diet includes a little wine at every meal, even breakfast? They usually drink between two and four glasses of wine per day." And counter to your claims, the science seems to support it, e.g: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/11066516/Glass-of-wine-with-dinner-helps-you-live-longer-scientists-claim.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/11066516/Glass-of-win... http://www.endocrineweb.com/news/diabetes/17936-red-wine-dinner-new-study-says-yes-you-can http://www.endocrineweb.com/news/diabetes/17936-red-wine-din... http://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-heart-wine-idUSKCN0S628R20151012 http://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-heart-wine-idUSKCN0... >A small number of French people drink very heavily. A bit less than 20% of the French population drinks wine daily. This contributes to the 49,000 or so who die of alcohol related disease each year. While that's true, that has to do more with the economy and modern trends (sodas etc). Historically it has been a much different picture: "France's average wine consumption fall from 160 litres per adult, per year in 1965 to 57 litres in 2010, roughly the equivalent of a drop from three glasses to one glass per person, per day" A lot of the fear about alcohol in the US comes from the fact that people are not properly taught to handle it (as something you drink with company, accompanying a meal, enjoying slowly etc), and use it in moderation from a young age (heck, the drinking age is 21 years olds), and instead use it in excess as some kind of recreation/pain killer/etc combo. Very few people at 19-21 in Europe (and especially regions like Spain, France, Italy, etc) would ever do the kind of BS stunts an American college student would do with beer and alcohol. (Though protestant and Northern countries tend to fare worse in this cultural aspect). To quote: "Comparing patterns of alcohol consumption between the United States and the majority of European countries, for example, reveals an interesting trend. In the U.S., the nation with one of the highest binge drinking rates worldwide, people tend to abuse alcohol. In Europe, by contrast, more people enjoy drinking alcohol without binge drinking because leisurely drinking is an important part of social interaction." http://mic.com/articles/57211/can-you-guess-where-in-the-world-people-are-binge-drinking-the-most#.ezL0xp052 http://mic.com/articles/57211/can-you-guess-where-in-the-wor...
  - corin_ 11y ago
    Actually nowhere near enough research has been done to understand what, if any, long-term damage frequent MDMA use can cause. In the very short-term it is quite neurotoxic, and consuming too much can cause immediate problems. It looks like short-term problems can be minimised by taking a few weeks in between uses, and according to at least one study it looks like all damage can be undone by just a few months of abstience. However there's really not enough data about lasting affects, if there are any, or about how frequency of use could impact your brain's outcome, or.... etc. Anecdotally I've heard many stories of people using MDMA too often and "losing the magic", that it just stops giving them the effects they used to enjoy. One other thing to note, you wrote "if you keep taking it, it will stop working altogether eventually, regardless of an increased dose" I'm no expert, and could well be corrected on this, but I suspect that is much more the case with the positive effects than with the downsides. For example MDMA is a drug known to have a "sweet spot" for most people, unlike many drugs (from booze to weed to cocaine) where different people build up different tolerances/preferences and therefore have a large range of doses, MDMA is generally thought to have quite a small range of good doses, after which increases will cause more/worse side affects without adding anything positive to the experience. Edit: https://dancesafe.org/drug-information/is-mdma-neurotoxic/ https://dancesafe.org/drug-information/is-mdma-neurotoxic/ is good for brief further reading (good sources cited at the end to follow), as well as https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_neurotoxicity1.shtml https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_neurotoxicity1.sh...
  - rudolf0 11y ago
    It may not be a drug with risk of addiction, but MDMA is absolutely neurotoxic, even from a single dose. The neurotoxicity from a single standard dose is pretty negligible, and can be remediated with supplements, but frequent use (like once per week) will absolutely cause brain damage no matter what you do. Here is a good overview of its different neurotoxicity factors from a well-regarded neuroscience researcher: https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/13lp0b/mdma_neurotoxicity_part_1_metabolites https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/13lp0b/mdma_neur... https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/15m9sf/mdma_supplementation https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/15m9sf/mdma_supp... 1. MDMA metabolizes into other chemicals which are prone to creating many reactive oxygen species, causing oxidative stress in different parts of the brain. This can be mitigated, partially, with anti-oxidant supplements. 2. MDMA directly harms and destroys receptors via serotonin, dopamine, and glutamate system via excitotoxicity. Infrequent use minimizes this. NMDA antagonists could also possibly help reduce some of the effects. 3. MDMA harms all parts of the brain by overheating it. Stay hydrated and prevent yourself from doing much physical activity in a hot area. So, MDMA can be taken safely, but it is naturally neurotoxic, and must be treated with much respect and caution. Other good advice for what supplements to take can be found at http://rollsafe.org http://rollsafe.org

johnw11 11y ago

Also, isn't MDMA highly toxic if used frequently? Drug forums seem to recommend the use of MDMA no more often than once every two weeks.

mirekrusin 11y ago
I don't know about frequent uses but I remember reading research paper which said that high doses are toxic, permanently damaging brain - so it's definitely not a good idea to take too many in too short time.
CoryG89 11y ago
MDMA does not form a physical dependence. In fact, if you keep taking it, it will stop working altogether eventually, regardless of an increased dose. There have been many bullshit studies with predetermined agendas and bad methodologies which have claimed that MDMA is neurotoxic. Whenever more responsible, un-biased studies are done, they usually show it is actually less "toxic" than alcohol. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/broadband/tx/drugs/ http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/broadband...
- DanBC 11y ago
  > they usually show it is actually less "toxic" than alcohol. That's not saying much. A jab in the eye with a sharp stick is less toxic than alcohol, but it's not a good idea.
  - coldtea 11y ago
    Well, if you can consume a decent dose of MDMA every day for all your life, like you can with alcohol (e.g. a glass or two of wine with your meal), without adverse effects, as tons of millions of people do with alcohol (e.g. in Spain, Greece, France, etc), then I don't see what's the concern.
    - DanBC 11y ago
      You might be over-estimating how much alcohol the average French person drinks, or under-estimating the harm that results tot he regular drinkers. "a glass or two of wine with your meal" "every day" is unequivocally harmful. It's a dangerous, pernicious myth (mostly promoted by alcohol companies) that daily alcohol is some how healthy. A small number of French people drink very heavily. A bit less than 20% of the French population drinks wine daily. This contributes to the 49,000 or so who die of alcohol related disease each year.
      - coldtea 11y ago
        >You might be over-estimating how much alcohol the average French person drinks, or under-estimating the harm that results tot he regular drinkers. Well, I know how much people back in my village drink, and I probably underestimate it. As for effects, they merely live to 80-90 and still manage to work on the fields and such. >"a glass or two of wine with your meal" "every day" is unequivocally harmful. It's a dangerous, pernicious myth (mostly promoted by alcohol companies) that daily alcohol is some how healthy. Actually daily alcohol has been the norm for very long living populations, including this famed one, which I've met and seen personally: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103744881 http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1037448... http://processedfreeamerica.org/resources/health-news/817-the-island-of-icaria-dietary-lessons-from-the-longest-lived-people http://processedfreeamerica.org/resources/health-news/817-th... Where: "the Icarian diet includes a little wine at every meal, even breakfast? They usually drink between two and four glasses of wine per day." And counter to your claims, the science seems to support it, e.g: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/11066516/Glass-of-wine-with-dinner-helps-you-live-longer-scientists-claim.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/11066516/Glass-of-win... http://www.endocrineweb.com/news/diabetes/17936-red-wine-dinner-new-study-says-yes-you-can http://www.endocrineweb.com/news/diabetes/17936-red-wine-din... http://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-heart-wine-idUSKCN0S628R20151012 http://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-heart-wine-idUSKCN0... >A small number of French people drink very heavily. A bit less than 20% of the French population drinks wine daily. This contributes to the 49,000 or so who die of alcohol related disease each year. While that's true, that has to do more with the economy and modern trends (sodas etc). Historically it has been a much different picture: "France's average wine consumption fall from 160 litres per adult, per year in 1965 to 57 litres in 2010, roughly the equivalent of a drop from three glasses to one glass per person, per day" A lot of the fear about alcohol in the US comes from the fact that people are not properly taught to handle it (as something you drink with company, accompanying a meal, enjoying slowly etc), and use it in moderation from a young age (heck, the drinking age is 21 years olds), and instead use it in excess as some kind of recreation/pain killer/etc combo. Very few people at 19-21 in Europe (and especially regions like Spain, France, Italy, etc) would ever do the kind of BS stunts an American college student would do with beer and alcohol. (Though protestant and Northern countries tend to fare worse in this cultural aspect). To quote: "Comparing patterns of alcohol consumption between the United States and the majority of European countries, for example, reveals an interesting trend. In the U.S., the nation with one of the highest binge drinking rates worldwide, people tend to abuse alcohol. In Europe, by contrast, more people enjoy drinking alcohol without binge drinking because leisurely drinking is an important part of social interaction." http://mic.com/articles/57211/can-you-guess-where-in-the-world-people-are-binge-drinking-the-most#.ezL0xp052 http://mic.com/articles/57211/can-you-guess-where-in-the-wor...
- corin_ 11y ago
  Actually nowhere near enough research has been done to understand what, if any, long-term damage frequent MDMA use can cause. In the very short-term it is quite neurotoxic, and consuming too much can cause immediate problems. It looks like short-term problems can be minimised by taking a few weeks in between uses, and according to at least one study it looks like all damage can be undone by just a few months of abstience. However there's really not enough data about lasting affects, if there are any, or about how frequency of use could impact your brain's outcome, or.... etc. Anecdotally I've heard many stories of people using MDMA too often and "losing the magic", that it just stops giving them the effects they used to enjoy. One other thing to note, you wrote "if you keep taking it, it will stop working altogether eventually, regardless of an increased dose" I'm no expert, and could well be corrected on this, but I suspect that is much more the case with the positive effects than with the downsides. For example MDMA is a drug known to have a "sweet spot" for most people, unlike many drugs (from booze to weed to cocaine) where different people build up different tolerances/preferences and therefore have a large range of doses, MDMA is generally thought to have quite a small range of good doses, after which increases will cause more/worse side affects without adding anything positive to the experience. Edit: https://dancesafe.org/drug-information/is-mdma-neurotoxic/ https://dancesafe.org/drug-information/is-mdma-neurotoxic/ is good for brief further reading (good sources cited at the end to follow), as well as https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_neurotoxicity1.shtml https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_neurotoxicity1.sh...
- rudolf0 11y ago
  It may not be a drug with risk of addiction, but MDMA is absolutely neurotoxic, even from a single dose. The neurotoxicity from a single standard dose is pretty negligible, and can be remediated with supplements, but frequent use (like once per week) will absolutely cause brain damage no matter what you do. Here is a good overview of its different neurotoxicity factors from a well-regarded neuroscience researcher: https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/13lp0b/mdma_neurotoxicity_part_1_metabolites https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/13lp0b/mdma_neur... https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/15m9sf/mdma_supplementation https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/15m9sf/mdma_supp... 1. MDMA metabolizes into other chemicals which are prone to creating many reactive oxygen species, causing oxidative stress in different parts of the brain. This can be mitigated, partially, with anti-oxidant supplements. 2. MDMA directly harms and destroys receptors via serotonin, dopamine, and glutamate system via excitotoxicity. Infrequent use minimizes this. NMDA antagonists could also possibly help reduce some of the effects. 3. MDMA harms all parts of the brain by overheating it. Stay hydrated and prevent yourself from doing much physical activity in a hot area. So, MDMA can be taken safely, but it is naturally neurotoxic, and must be treated with much respect and caution. Other good advice for what supplements to take can be found at http://rollsafe.org http://rollsafe.org