7 ms·

Also, while I don't personally have experience with a lot of illegal drugs, if you ask anyone who does he will tell you that there are drugs that nearly instant

by johnw11 11y ago

Also, while I don't personally have experience with a lot of illegal drugs, if you ask anyone who does he will tell you that there are drugs that nearly instantly make you happy without having to wait weeks for the drugs to have a subtle effect on your thought processes. These illegal drugs may or may not be too dangerous to use regularly to treat depression, but it's worth noting the fact that it's clearly not "impossible" to make a true "happy pill"

johnchristopher 11y ago
But don't those happy pills have really high dependence and don't you need to increase the dosage and the intervals to stay on the same plateau ?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- johnw11 11y ago
  Yes, many do, but is that necessarily inherent to all "happy pills"?
  - johnchristopher 11y ago
    Well, I don't know. To be honest I doubt such magic pill exists :/.
- Snackchez 11y ago
  Your statement should have an "or" instead of an "and". Ex: MDMA does not have high dependence but does require an increased dosage due to plateaus
  - johnw11 11y ago
    Also, isn't MDMA highly toxic if used frequently? Drug forums seem to recommend the use of MDMA no more often than once every two weeks.
    - mirekrusin 11y ago
      I don't know about frequent uses but I remember reading research paper which said that high doses are toxic, permanently damaging brain - so it's definitely not a good idea to take too many in too short time.
    - CoryG89 11y ago
      MDMA does not form a physical dependence. In fact, if you keep taking it, it will stop working altogether eventually, regardless of an increased dose. There have been many bullshit studies with predetermined agendas and bad methodologies which have claimed that MDMA is neurotoxic. Whenever more responsible, un-biased studies are done, they usually show it is actually less "toxic" than alcohol. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/broadband/tx/drugs/ http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/broadband...
      - DanBC 11y ago
        > they usually show it is actually less "toxic" than alcohol. That's not saying much. A jab in the eye with a sharp stick is less toxic than alcohol, but it's not a good idea.
        coldtea 11y ago
        Well, if you can consume a decent dose of MDMA every day for all your life, like you can with alcohol (e.g. a glass or two of wine with your meal), without adverse effects, as tons of millions of people do with alcohol (e.g. in Spain, Greece, France, etc), then I don't see what's the concern.
        DanBC 11y ago
        You might be over-estimating how much alcohol the average French person drinks, or under-estimating the harm that results tot he regular drinkers. "a glass or two of wine with your meal" "every day" is unequivocally harmful. It's a dangerous, pernicious myth (mostly promoted by alcohol companies) that daily alcohol is some how healthy. A small number of French people drink very heavily. A bit less than 20% of the French population drinks wine daily. This contributes to the 49,000 or so who die of alcohol related disease each year.
empath75 11y ago
Yeah I've been wondering about that. How the hell does mdma work if it's not serotonin. I always understood that the euphoria was caused by a flood of serotonin in your brain.
- stinos 11y ago
  Came here to pose the exact same question. I also always understood that one of the risks of repeated mdma intake is serotonin depletion. Also the effect where one feels like shit 1-3 days after an mdma trip is very real. So while it is possible serotonin is not the happy chemical, it either does play a role (possibly or even likely if you ask me in combination with other chemicals) or else all other research so far has been very much wrong.
- mattlutze 11y ago
  So, with its grain of salt, the Wikipedia article on MDMA begins the discussion with this statement: > MDMA acts primarily as a presynaptic releasing agent of serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine, which arises from its activity at trace amine-associated receptor 1 (TAAR1) and vesicular monoamine transporter 2 (VMAT2). It goes on to state that MDMA acts as an inhibitor of VMAT2, which correlates to an increase of the neurotransmitters in the space near that receptor's neuron. I think this means that it does operate on the brain by encouraging the release of more serotonin, norepinephrine and dopamine. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDMA#Pharmacodynamics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDMA#Pharmacodynamics
- mrmcd 11y ago
  I can't speak for MDMA, but I have experimented (ok, recreated) with psilocin (shrooms), 4-ACO-DMT, and DMT, which are all serotonin agonists. The best I can describe it is that a high enough dose feels like putting your brain into debugging mode and then cycling through hundreds of circuits simultaneously. It's not so much "I am experiencing happy now" as "I am experiencing happy, sad, confused, interested, pulsating colors, fractals, childlike wonder, fear, and every other cognitive state simultaneously or in rapid succession." Some people get very spiritual about it, but I think you kind of have to be a spiritually inclined person anyway to have that specific experience. I always saw it more of giving the hardware a good jolt and seeing what falls out. It's pretty common to go from laughing uncontrollably, to inconsolable sadness, and back again, fairly quickly. This is where a lot of the fear about "bad trips" comes from, but I've found you can manage that with practice and having experienced people tripping with you or babysitting. I do think there are therapeutic benefits though. Even if there are difficult periods, I find I always felt happier, more ok with the world and open to new experiences and attitudes for up to weeks after words. The article briefly mentions how there's a hypothesis that depression is possibly an effect of individuals who "over learn" negative experiences and become fixated on negative outcomes, and this makes a lot of sense to me. Aside from a sort of "purging" feeling just from such intense bursts of emotions, I could see how it helped to kind of kick me out of the traps of negative and habitual thinking and emotions. Maybe it helped my neurons "relearn" there are other experiences, emotions, and modes of thinking that I can access too? This is all anecdotal evidence though, gathered while under severe impairment, so take it with that caveat. I would bet that aside from the legal issues, the hardest part of investigating things like psychedelics in a scientific way is that every experience is inherently subjective and personal. Trying to describe and talk about them gets very squishy very quickly.

by johnw11 11y ago

johnchristopher 11y ago

But don't those happy pills have really high dependence and don't you need to increase the dosage and the intervals to stay on the same plateau ?

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
johnw11 11y ago
Yes, many do, but is that necessarily inherent to all "happy pills"?
- johnchristopher 11y ago
  Well, I don't know. To be honest I doubt such magic pill exists :/.
Snackchez 11y ago
Your statement should have an "or" instead of an "and". Ex: MDMA does not have high dependence but does require an increased dosage due to plateaus
- johnw11 11y ago
  Also, isn't MDMA highly toxic if used frequently? Drug forums seem to recommend the use of MDMA no more often than once every two weeks.
  - mirekrusin 11y ago
    I don't know about frequent uses but I remember reading research paper which said that high doses are toxic, permanently damaging brain - so it's definitely not a good idea to take too many in too short time.
  - CoryG89 11y ago
    MDMA does not form a physical dependence. In fact, if you keep taking it, it will stop working altogether eventually, regardless of an increased dose. There have been many bullshit studies with predetermined agendas and bad methodologies which have claimed that MDMA is neurotoxic. Whenever more responsible, un-biased studies are done, they usually show it is actually less "toxic" than alcohol. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/broadband/tx/drugs/ http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/broadband...
    - DanBC 11y ago
      > they usually show it is actually less "toxic" than alcohol. That's not saying much. A jab in the eye with a sharp stick is less toxic than alcohol, but it's not a good idea.
      - coldtea 11y ago
        Well, if you can consume a decent dose of MDMA every day for all your life, like you can with alcohol (e.g. a glass or two of wine with your meal), without adverse effects, as tons of millions of people do with alcohol (e.g. in Spain, Greece, France, etc), then I don't see what's the concern.
        DanBC 11y ago
        You might be over-estimating how much alcohol the average French person drinks, or under-estimating the harm that results tot he regular drinkers. "a glass or two of wine with your meal" "every day" is unequivocally harmful. It's a dangerous, pernicious myth (mostly promoted by alcohol companies) that daily alcohol is some how healthy. A small number of French people drink very heavily. A bit less than 20% of the French population drinks wine daily. This contributes to the 49,000 or so who die of alcohol related disease each year.

empath75 11y ago

Yeah I've been wondering about that. How the hell does mdma work if it's not serotonin. I always understood that the euphoria was caused by a flood of serotonin in your brain.

stinos 11y ago
Came here to pose the exact same question. I also always understood that one of the risks of repeated mdma intake is serotonin depletion. Also the effect where one feels like shit 1-3 days after an mdma trip is very real. So while it is possible serotonin is not the happy chemical, it either does play a role (possibly or even likely if you ask me in combination with other chemicals) or else all other research so far has been very much wrong.
mattlutze 11y ago
So, with its grain of salt, the Wikipedia article on MDMA begins the discussion with this statement: > MDMA acts primarily as a presynaptic releasing agent of serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine, which arises from its activity at trace amine-associated receptor 1 (TAAR1) and vesicular monoamine transporter 2 (VMAT2). It goes on to state that MDMA acts as an inhibitor of VMAT2, which correlates to an increase of the neurotransmitters in the space near that receptor's neuron. I think this means that it does operate on the brain by encouraging the release of more serotonin, norepinephrine and dopamine. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDMA#Pharmacodynamics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDMA#Pharmacodynamics
mrmcd 11y ago
I can't speak for MDMA, but I have experimented (ok, recreated) with psilocin (shrooms), 4-ACO-DMT, and DMT, which are all serotonin agonists. The best I can describe it is that a high enough dose feels like putting your brain into debugging mode and then cycling through hundreds of circuits simultaneously. It's not so much "I am experiencing happy now" as "I am experiencing happy, sad, confused, interested, pulsating colors, fractals, childlike wonder, fear, and every other cognitive state simultaneously or in rapid succession." Some people get very spiritual about it, but I think you kind of have to be a spiritually inclined person anyway to have that specific experience. I always saw it more of giving the hardware a good jolt and seeing what falls out. It's pretty common to go from laughing uncontrollably, to inconsolable sadness, and back again, fairly quickly. This is where a lot of the fear about "bad trips" comes from, but I've found you can manage that with practice and having experienced people tripping with you or babysitting. I do think there are therapeutic benefits though. Even if there are difficult periods, I find I always felt happier, more ok with the world and open to new experiences and attitudes for up to weeks after words. The article briefly mentions how there's a hypothesis that depression is possibly an effect of individuals who "over learn" negative experiences and become fixated on negative outcomes, and this makes a lot of sense to me. Aside from a sort of "purging" feeling just from such intense bursts of emotions, I could see how it helped to kind of kick me out of the traps of negative and habitual thinking and emotions. Maybe it helped my neurons "relearn" there are other experiences, emotions, and modes of thinking that I can access too? This is all anecdotal evidence though, gathered while under severe impairment, so take it with that caveat. I would bet that aside from the legal issues, the hardest part of investigating things like psychedelics in a scientific way is that every experience is inherently subjective and personal. Trying to describe and talk about them gets very squishy very quickly.