4 ms·

In Denmark it is as far as I can tell still acceptable to publicly discuss and vent about the issues concerning both crime and immigration. In some neighbouring

In Denmark it is as far as I can tell still acceptable to publicly discuss and vent about the issues concerning both crime and immigration. In some neighbouring countries it has been mostly put down by left wing "moderators" under the seemingly well intended excuse of not wanting to cause stigma (stigmatizing the critics in the process), instead causing huge amounts of frustration and a sense of betrayal in large parts of the general public. This is what makes otherwise regular people turn to parties much further to the right than they would otherwise. I think Denmark will come out on top in this, other countries should take a cue from them. Note: I live in a neighbouring country. Edit: Moderated "general public" to "large parts of the general public"

thallian 11y ago
Yeah, it seems that immigrants are either the source of all evil or saints. Without any meaningful middleground it will only get more extreme. (I am not from a neighbouring country but not that far away)
- hussong 11y ago
  I'd call that the 'Double Schrödinger's Immigrant': - takes away our jobs, while simultaneously leeching off of our taxpayers' money AND - helps us solve our demographic problem / labor shortage, while simultaneously moving back to his home country as soon as peace is restored there
  - cousin_it 11y ago
    Interestingly, the first possibility isn't self-contradictory. If you agree to work for a very low salary, you'll bid down the wages for everyone else and require public assistance to stay afloat. From what I've heard, it's happening with Walmart workers in the US.
_delirium 11y ago
Considering the rise of Dansk Folkeparti in Denmark (sort-of a "nicer/cleaner" version of Sweden Democrats), and the very low quality level of the current Danish political debate, I'm not sure the Danish approach is doing much to defuse right-wing populism through letting people air their grievances. They can, but they just they do that in addition to voting for populist-right parties, not instead of. In any case it seems to be a much broader phenomenon than the political discourse norms of any one country. Right-populist politics, in the various local flavors offered by DF/SD/Trump/Szydło, are gaining across many countries despite quite a few differences in those countries.
- adrianN 11y ago
  I think right wing populists benefit a lot from the general feeling that the established parties and the media refuse to even admit that there might be a problem caused by mass immigration.
  - _delirium 11y ago
    I'm skeptical that's a significant factor, because right-populists seem to be gaining even in countries, like Denmark and the USA, which have a large portion of mainstream media and politicians hostile to mass immigration. In that case, immigration opponents can't claim that nobody takes their concerns seriously, or that you're not allowed to criticize mass immigration, because many mainstream outlets and figures are doing so. But the media support seems to if anything just help their cause: years of Fox News harshly criticizing illegal immigration from Mexico feeds well into Trump's strategy of doing the same thing, but with the rhetoric amped up a few notches.
    - ThomPete 11y ago
      Right wing isn't gaining in Denmark. Not sure where you have that from. DF is gaining because ordinary people are seeing their jobs being outsourced or underbid by eastern european citizens. In fact this is today the primary reason for why parties like DF gets more and more power. They are the only parties who actually takes peoples concern seriously. There is a much much bigger fraction of the western society who do not stand to benefit from technological progress, multicultural society and globalized workforce. If anything what is happening right now is a national conservative trend where people who aren't benefitting will vote on the parties that are sceptic to progress.
      - _delirium 11y ago
        I agree with that. Fears about globalization's effects on the working class / blue-collar middle class, which in Western Europe post-WW2 had a reasonably good and stable economic position, but is now becoming much more precarious, are a big economic driving force behind the right-populist parties. I think that's a much bigger effect than any worries about the media or political correctness.
yodsanklai 11y ago
> In some neighbouring countries it has been mostly put down by left wing "moderators" under the seemingly well intended excuse of not wanting to cause stigma And still, conservatives and racists are routinely headlining most popular medias and public debates. They don't have any problem to express their point of view. What is rightfully "put down" is incitement to ethnic or racial hatred (which is also illegal in most Europe countries). > in large parts of the general public. I assume what you call "large part of the general public" are the usual 20% that vote for far right parties.
- ThomPete 11y ago
  Most parties with few exceptions share 90% of Dansk Folkepartis immigration policy. Even under the previous center-left government most shared this view. They disagree on some very important areas but all the stuff you read about in the newspapers (much of it planted by danish politicians not in agreement) there is political consensus about. But go back 20 years in Denmark or just a couple of years in Sweden and you will see a different pictures. They were the parias of society. Despite the huge success Sveriges Demokraterne had at last election the other parties decided to completely ignore them and to keep them out of power. Swedish police has not been allowed to put ethnicity into reports even when it was relevant. Sweden (and Germany) invited immigrants and fugitives to just come. Now Sweden sobered by reality closed it's borders to Denmark because they can't have anymore. I am not a big proponent of DF and personally I am an "open borders, but no money" kind of person. This is one of the things I believe works really well here in the US. But they were wrong about it becoming an issue. Especially since Denmark have so lucrative social benefits as they do (which the fugitives and immigrants go after and I don't blame them) But this is a much more complicated discussion than just right wing racist parties vs. the good people on the left. The discussion in Europe right now really is about how the EU makes sure that it balances it's international obligations with it's obligations over it's citizens.
- maus42 11y ago
  >And still, conservatives and racists are routinely headlining most popular medias and public debates. They don't have any problem to express their point of view. I think the argumentative tactic is to claim that you are leftist/cultural-marxist/whatever who is "being silent about problems" if you don't portray the issues exactly the same way as they are doing. It works because in the beginning the left did not want to talk about the problems.

thallian 11y ago

Yeah, it seems that immigrants are either the source of all evil or saints. Without any meaningful middleground it will only get more extreme. (I am not from a neighbouring country but not that far away)

hussong 11y ago
I'd call that the 'Double Schrödinger's Immigrant': - takes away our jobs, while simultaneously leeching off of our taxpayers' money AND - helps us solve our demographic problem / labor shortage, while simultaneously moving back to his home country as soon as peace is restored there
- cousin_it 11y ago
  Interestingly, the first possibility isn't self-contradictory. If you agree to work for a very low salary, you'll bid down the wages for everyone else and require public assistance to stay afloat. From what I've heard, it's happening with Walmart workers in the US.

_delirium 11y ago

Considering the rise of Dansk Folkeparti in Denmark (sort-of a "nicer/cleaner" version of Sweden Democrats), and the very low quality level of the current Danish political debate, I'm not sure the Danish approach is doing much to defuse right-wing populism through letting people air their grievances. They can, but they just they do that in addition to voting for populist-right parties, not instead of. In any case it seems to be a much broader phenomenon than the political discourse norms of any one country. Right-populist politics, in the various local flavors offered by DF/SD/Trump/Szydło, are gaining across many countries despite quite a few differences in those countries.

adrianN 11y ago
I think right wing populists benefit a lot from the general feeling that the established parties and the media refuse to even admit that there might be a problem caused by mass immigration.
- _delirium 11y ago
  I'm skeptical that's a significant factor, because right-populists seem to be gaining even in countries, like Denmark and the USA, which have a large portion of mainstream media and politicians hostile to mass immigration. In that case, immigration opponents can't claim that nobody takes their concerns seriously, or that you're not allowed to criticize mass immigration, because many mainstream outlets and figures are doing so. But the media support seems to if anything just help their cause: years of Fox News harshly criticizing illegal immigration from Mexico feeds well into Trump's strategy of doing the same thing, but with the rhetoric amped up a few notches.
  - ThomPete 11y ago
    Right wing isn't gaining in Denmark. Not sure where you have that from. DF is gaining because ordinary people are seeing their jobs being outsourced or underbid by eastern european citizens. In fact this is today the primary reason for why parties like DF gets more and more power. They are the only parties who actually takes peoples concern seriously. There is a much much bigger fraction of the western society who do not stand to benefit from technological progress, multicultural society and globalized workforce. If anything what is happening right now is a national conservative trend where people who aren't benefitting will vote on the parties that are sceptic to progress.
    - _delirium 11y ago
      I agree with that. Fears about globalization's effects on the working class / blue-collar middle class, which in Western Europe post-WW2 had a reasonably good and stable economic position, but is now becoming much more precarious, are a big economic driving force behind the right-populist parties. I think that's a much bigger effect than any worries about the media or political correctness.

yodsanklai 11y ago

> In some neighbouring countries it has been mostly put down by left wing "moderators" under the seemingly well intended excuse of not wanting to cause stigma And still, conservatives and racists are routinely headlining most popular medias and public debates. They don't have any problem to express their point of view. What is rightfully "put down" is incitement to ethnic or racial hatred (which is also illegal in most Europe countries). > in large parts of the general public. I assume what you call "large part of the general public" are the usual 20% that vote for far right parties.

ThomPete 11y ago
Most parties with few exceptions share 90% of Dansk Folkepartis immigration policy. Even under the previous center-left government most shared this view. They disagree on some very important areas but all the stuff you read about in the newspapers (much of it planted by danish politicians not in agreement) there is political consensus about. But go back 20 years in Denmark or just a couple of years in Sweden and you will see a different pictures. They were the parias of society. Despite the huge success Sveriges Demokraterne had at last election the other parties decided to completely ignore them and to keep them out of power. Swedish police has not been allowed to put ethnicity into reports even when it was relevant. Sweden (and Germany) invited immigrants and fugitives to just come. Now Sweden sobered by reality closed it's borders to Denmark because they can't have anymore. I am not a big proponent of DF and personally I am an "open borders, but no money" kind of person. This is one of the things I believe works really well here in the US. But they were wrong about it becoming an issue. Especially since Denmark have so lucrative social benefits as they do (which the fugitives and immigrants go after and I don't blame them) But this is a much more complicated discussion than just right wing racist parties vs. the good people on the left. The discussion in Europe right now really is about how the EU makes sure that it balances it's international obligations with it's obligations over it's citizens.
maus42 11y ago
>And still, conservatives and racists are routinely headlining most popular medias and public debates. They don't have any problem to express their point of view. I think the argumentative tactic is to claim that you are leftist/cultural-marxist/whatever who is "being silent about problems" if you don't portray the issues exactly the same way as they are doing. It works because in the beginning the left did not want to talk about the problems.