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If I had to characterize Mr. Obama's administration, I'd say he all too often says exactly the right things (and maybe even believes them) but the implementatio

by IIAOPSW 11y ago

If I had to characterize Mr. Obama's administration, I'd say he all too often says exactly the right things (and maybe even believes them) but the implementations (if any) leave an endless amount to be desired. But this, like everything the last 8 years, will come out to little more than an eloquent WashPos article. Thanks Obama. Edit: TIL the president cannot pardon state level crimes. oops

chris11 11y ago
I'm not arguing that some of Obama's policy implementations are lacking. But it seems like people are expecting too much out of him. I think that solitary confinement is definitely unethical. But I also think the idea of mass pardons for prisoners if states don't reform solitary confinement would be political suicide. Republicans would be running ads saying that Obama wants violent criminals to be released because prison isn't comfortable enough. Democrats wouldn't support it. And I think it might sink the democratic party's chances in the presidential election. Sure there are more things that Obama could have done to solve specific problems. But I don't think some complaints would have been fixed under any president.
- LordKano 11y ago
  I also think the idea of mass pardons for prisoners if states don't reform solitary confinement would be political suicide. He's a lame duck with less than 1 year remaining in his term. His political career is over. He has already peaked.
  - chris11 11y ago
    I think it would also be political suicide for the democratic party, not just Obama.
x5n1 11y ago
Yes the drone strikes are often killing around 90% civilians, but please, lets not abuse the prisoners through solitary confinement, it's inhumane.
jmgrosen 11y ago
>He can make this threat unilaterally as the ability to pardon anyone and everyone does not require congress. Ignoring the implications of such a move for a moment, the President does not have the power to pardon state crimes, so that plan would not work.
wflann 11y ago
The President can only pardon those convicted of federal criminal crimes committed against the United States. This new policy will only affect those in federal prisons (in which the President has purview) and why this measure is more limited in scope.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
mkolodny 11y ago
Well, he just banned solitary confinement for juveniles, and shortened the maximum solitary confinement for a first offense: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obama-bans-solitary-confinement-for-juveniles-in-federal-prisons/2016/01/25/056e14b2-c3a2-11e5-9693-933a4d31bcc8_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obama-bans-solitary-... So, at least in this case, it looks like he lived up to the hype.
AaronFriel 11y ago
If we followed your policy proposal, we'd still be figuring this out in 40 years or so when the Democrats finally win the White House again. I can't imagine a more damaging policy for future PR than pardoning definitely violent criminals who have suffered terribly due to solitary confinement, without any time or consideration given to rehabilitation. If only one of those pardoned were to commit murder, wave goodbye to any hope at criminal justice reform.
LordKano 11y ago
released by way of presidential pardon. The President doesn't have the authority to pardon someone for a State crime. I suppose he could threaten to pardon federal inmates who were residents of non-compliant states before their incarceration. Article II, Section 2. The President…shall have the power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment. Without the abbreviation: The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States; he may require the opinion, in writing, of the principal officer in each of the executive departments, upon any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices, and he shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment.
- IIAOPSW 11y ago
  After multiple comments, I looked it up and yeah, its true. President can't pardon state level crimes. Although in my original reading of the constitution (the exact section you posted), I don't see why that is true. >he shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment. Is there some case law that has determined "offenses against the United States" == Federal crime only?
  - azernik 11y ago
    Seems from the very beginning; an act establishing several federal crimes in 1790 [1] - only one year after the Constitution came into force - was titled "An Act for the Punishment of Certain Crimes Against the United States". EDIT: And the root of this phrase seems to be in the distinction between civil and criminal offenses - an crime is an "offense against the State" [2], where the government has standing to bring the case to court rather than the individuals (if any) specifically harmed. In this context, the usage "offense against the United States" pretty clearly indicates crimes where the United States rather than an individual states has jurisdiction. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimes_Act_of_1790 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimes_Act_of_1790 [2] http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-law-basics/the-differences-between-a-criminal-case-and-a-civil-case.html http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-law-basics/the-differen...
ryporter 11y ago
I disagree agree with many of Obama's policies, but I think this response is overly cynical (especially the intimation that he might be disingenuous). Even absent any authority at all to act on a particular issue, it can still be productive for the President to draw attention to it by using his "bully pulpit." In this case, I had no idea that solitary confinement was overused in this way, and the principles he outlined seemed very sensible to me. Now, it is at least more likely that fellow politicians will follow his lead on this issue.
drinchev 11y ago
This is so true. I still remember the debate about Guantanamo Bay detention camp and how he wanted to completely close it, but nothing actually happened. [1] I don't know which one is worse : Holding prisoners without a charge for decades or holding criminals in solitary confinement. 1 : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp#Obama.27s_attempt_to_close_the_camp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp#...
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- mikeash 11y ago
  Nothing happened because it's not the President's decision alone. He tried, met with huge opposition from Congress, and couldn't make it happen. Part of the problem is that people don't understand the President's powers and expect more from him than he can deliver. The other part of the problem is that the President himself seems to like promising more than he can actually deliver. He doesn't say "I'll try to close Guantanamo, but Congress really wants to keep it open and it's ultimately up to them." He just says, "I'll close it" and then, oops, can't.
tptacek 11y ago
This particular article isn't just an editorial, but also an announcement of new federal prison policy.

by IIAOPSW 11y ago

chris11 11y ago

I'm not arguing that some of Obama's policy implementations are lacking. But it seems like people are expecting too much out of him. I think that solitary confinement is definitely unethical. But I also think the idea of mass pardons for prisoners if states don't reform solitary confinement would be political suicide. Republicans would be running ads saying that Obama wants violent criminals to be released because prison isn't comfortable enough. Democrats wouldn't support it. And I think it might sink the democratic party's chances in the presidential election. Sure there are more things that Obama could have done to solve specific problems. But I don't think some complaints would have been fixed under any president.

LordKano 11y ago
I also think the idea of mass pardons for prisoners if states don't reform solitary confinement would be political suicide. He's a lame duck with less than 1 year remaining in his term. His political career is over. He has already peaked.
- chris11 11y ago
  I think it would also be political suicide for the democratic party, not just Obama.

x5n1 11y ago

Yes the drone strikes are often killing around 90% civilians, but please, lets not abuse the prisoners through solitary confinement, it's inhumane.

jmgrosen 11y ago

>He can make this threat unilaterally as the ability to pardon anyone and everyone does not require congress. Ignoring the implications of such a move for a moment, the President does not have the power to pardon state crimes, so that plan would not work.

wflann 11y ago

The President can only pardon those convicted of federal criminal crimes committed against the United States. This new policy will only affect those in federal prisons (in which the President has purview) and why this measure is more limited in scope.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

mkolodny 11y ago

Well, he just banned solitary confinement for juveniles, and shortened the maximum solitary confinement for a first offense: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obama-bans-solitary-confinement-for-juveniles-in-federal-prisons/2016/01/25/056e14b2-c3a2-11e5-9693-933a4d31bcc8_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obama-bans-solitary-... So, at least in this case, it looks like he lived up to the hype.

AaronFriel 11y ago

If we followed your policy proposal, we'd still be figuring this out in 40 years or so when the Democrats finally win the White House again. I can't imagine a more damaging policy for future PR than pardoning definitely violent criminals who have suffered terribly due to solitary confinement, without any time or consideration given to rehabilitation. If only one of those pardoned were to commit murder, wave goodbye to any hope at criminal justice reform.

LordKano 11y ago

released by way of presidential pardon. The President doesn't have the authority to pardon someone for a State crime. I suppose he could threaten to pardon federal inmates who were residents of non-compliant states before their incarceration. Article II, Section 2. The President…shall have the power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment. Without the abbreviation: The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States; he may require the opinion, in writing, of the principal officer in each of the executive departments, upon any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices, and he shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment.

IIAOPSW 11y ago
After multiple comments, I looked it up and yeah, its true. President can't pardon state level crimes. Although in my original reading of the constitution (the exact section you posted), I don't see why that is true. >he shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment. Is there some case law that has determined "offenses against the United States" == Federal crime only?
- azernik 11y ago
  Seems from the very beginning; an act establishing several federal crimes in 1790 [1] - only one year after the Constitution came into force - was titled "An Act for the Punishment of Certain Crimes Against the United States". EDIT: And the root of this phrase seems to be in the distinction between civil and criminal offenses - an crime is an "offense against the State" [2], where the government has standing to bring the case to court rather than the individuals (if any) specifically harmed. In this context, the usage "offense against the United States" pretty clearly indicates crimes where the United States rather than an individual states has jurisdiction. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimes_Act_of_1790 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimes_Act_of_1790 [2] http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-law-basics/the-differences-between-a-criminal-case-and-a-civil-case.html http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-law-basics/the-differen...

ryporter 11y ago

I disagree agree with many of Obama's policies, but I think this response is overly cynical (especially the intimation that he might be disingenuous). Even absent any authority at all to act on a particular issue, it can still be productive for the President to draw attention to it by using his "bully pulpit." In this case, I had no idea that solitary confinement was overused in this way, and the principles he outlined seemed very sensible to me. Now, it is at least more likely that fellow politicians will follow his lead on this issue.

drinchev 11y ago

This is so true. I still remember the debate about Guantanamo Bay detention camp and how he wanted to completely close it, but nothing actually happened. [1] I don't know which one is worse : Holding prisoners without a charge for decades or holding criminals in solitary confinement. 1 : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp#Obama.27s_attempt_to_close_the_camp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp#...

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
mikeash 11y ago
Nothing happened because it's not the President's decision alone. He tried, met with huge opposition from Congress, and couldn't make it happen. Part of the problem is that people don't understand the President's powers and expect more from him than he can deliver. The other part of the problem is that the President himself seems to like promising more than he can actually deliver. He doesn't say "I'll try to close Guantanamo, but Congress really wants to keep it open and it's ultimately up to them." He just says, "I'll close it" and then, oops, can't.

tptacek 11y ago

This particular article isn't just an editorial, but also an announcement of new federal prison policy.