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The Australian aborigines have told the same stories for 10,000 years: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ancient-sea-rise-tale-told-accurately-for-10-0

by adekok 11y ago

The Australian aborigines have told the same stories for 10,000 years: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ancient-sea-rise-tale-told-accurately-for-10-000-years/ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ancient-sea-rise-t... The same for India: http://www.earthporm.com/5-mind-blowing-underwater-cities/ http://www.earthporm.com/5-mind-blowing-underwater-cities/ See #3. Most people don't realize just how deep human history is. Words people use every day are ~2000 years old. e.g. "via", goes back to the Roman times.

danieltillett 11y ago
I am none too convinced by the evidence of the Australian aborigines stories. They are so vague they could just be made up. To give you an idea how unlikely a story would survive being passed down for 10,000 years is, the Tasmanian aborigines lost the ability to fish and and even start fire [1]. Given the critical nature of this information to survival how likely is it that a random story with no survival value would last 10,000 years? 1. http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/08/08/why-did-the-tasmanians-stop-ea/ http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/08/08/why-did-the-tas...
- c22 11y ago
  I'm out of my element here, but presumably the fact that they're able to tell stories implies that the fishing knowledge became no longer necessary for survival. It seems completely reasonable that entertaining stories would have more staying power than uneccesary procedural knowledge.
  - danieltillett 11y ago
    Not been able to fish or make fire in a place like Tasmania if you are living a hunter gather lifestyle is quite a loss. We know from the archaeological record that the Tasmanian aboriginal population was able to fish for thousands of years after the sea level rose and cutoff Tasmanian from mainland Australia. No one really know why, but after thousands of years of fishing they somehow lost the knowledge of how to catch fish. If something as useful as fishing is lost (the seas around Tasmania teem with fish) then how likely is it that a folk tale would be passed down for 10,000 years by oral tradition.
- shardinator 11y ago
  Pre-euro Australia was more like Europe with different tribes/nations that shared common characteristics yet still had their own languages and cultures. Compare and contrast the difference in sophistication between the Romans and the gauls or germanic tribes around 200AD, they would seem totally different worlds. It could have been similar in Aus. Other indigenous Australian groups invented the boomerang - first ever practical use of aerofoil technology - precursor of modern flight and the woomera which launches a spear around 700-800m with accuracy. From what I remember their art was somewhat codified so it could almost be "read", this would make it easier to share information across time and place. If you have groups on two ends of the continent sharing very similar stories, then at least you'd have to allow the reasonable possibility it's more than just random noise.
  - danieltillett 11y ago
    The boomerang was not invented in Australia [1]. Woomeras don't allow you to throw a spear 800m (200m at most). These were not invented in Australia either [2]. Both are really ancient technologies. As for different cultures sharing the same stories is no more surprising than people in England and China sharing similar stories. All pre-agricultural people have somewhat similar lives so we should expect they have similar stories and myths. Occam's razor should rule here. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boomerang https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boomerang 2. http://www.donsmaps.com/atlatl.html http://www.donsmaps.com/atlatl.html
umanwizard 11y ago
Bit of a tangent, but I enjoy the fact that "yeah" predates "yes". The latter is derived from the former (which is obviously cognate to German "ja", etc.) Source: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/yes#Etymology https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/yes#Etymology https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/yeah#Etymology https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/yeah#Etymology tl;dr "Yeah" is the modern version of Old English "ġēa" which also means "so". "Yes" is a contraction of "ġēa sī", or something like "let it be so".
WalterBright 11y ago
The Romans also had writing. Writing helps a lot in stabilizing a language. Take a look at English before it was written down - it changed constantly and rapidly. 10,000 years is 500 generations. How many generations of family stories do you have? I have zero from further back than my great-grandparents, that's 3 generations ago, let alone 500. The claim of 10,000 year old stories is very extraordinary, and so extraordinary evidence is necessary to be convincing.
- umanwizard 11y ago
  > Take a look at English before it was written down - it changed constantly and rapidly. How can we possibly know how fast it was changing before it was written down? Also, English has been written down since around 500 and still changed constantly and rapidly after that.

by adekok 11y ago

danieltillett 11y ago

I am none too convinced by the evidence of the Australian aborigines stories. They are so vague they could just be made up. To give you an idea how unlikely a story would survive being passed down for 10,000 years is, the Tasmanian aborigines lost the ability to fish and and even start fire [1]. Given the critical nature of this information to survival how likely is it that a random story with no survival value would last 10,000 years? 1. http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/08/08/why-did-the-tasmanians-stop-ea/ http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/08/08/why-did-the-tas...

c22 11y ago
I'm out of my element here, but presumably the fact that they're able to tell stories implies that the fishing knowledge became no longer necessary for survival. It seems completely reasonable that entertaining stories would have more staying power than uneccesary procedural knowledge.
- danieltillett 11y ago
  Not been able to fish or make fire in a place like Tasmania if you are living a hunter gather lifestyle is quite a loss. We know from the archaeological record that the Tasmanian aboriginal population was able to fish for thousands of years after the sea level rose and cutoff Tasmanian from mainland Australia. No one really know why, but after thousands of years of fishing they somehow lost the knowledge of how to catch fish. If something as useful as fishing is lost (the seas around Tasmania teem with fish) then how likely is it that a folk tale would be passed down for 10,000 years by oral tradition.
shardinator 11y ago
Pre-euro Australia was more like Europe with different tribes/nations that shared common characteristics yet still had their own languages and cultures. Compare and contrast the difference in sophistication between the Romans and the gauls or germanic tribes around 200AD, they would seem totally different worlds. It could have been similar in Aus. Other indigenous Australian groups invented the boomerang - first ever practical use of aerofoil technology - precursor of modern flight and the woomera which launches a spear around 700-800m with accuracy. From what I remember their art was somewhat codified so it could almost be "read", this would make it easier to share information across time and place. If you have groups on two ends of the continent sharing very similar stories, then at least you'd have to allow the reasonable possibility it's more than just random noise.
- danieltillett 11y ago
  The boomerang was not invented in Australia [1]. Woomeras don't allow you to throw a spear 800m (200m at most). These were not invented in Australia either [2]. Both are really ancient technologies. As for different cultures sharing the same stories is no more surprising than people in England and China sharing similar stories. All pre-agricultural people have somewhat similar lives so we should expect they have similar stories and myths. Occam's razor should rule here. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boomerang https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boomerang 2. http://www.donsmaps.com/atlatl.html http://www.donsmaps.com/atlatl.html

umanwizard 11y ago

Bit of a tangent, but I enjoy the fact that "yeah" predates "yes". The latter is derived from the former (which is obviously cognate to German "ja", etc.) Source: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/yes#Etymology https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/yes#Etymology https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/yeah#Etymology https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/yeah#Etymology tl;dr "Yeah" is the modern version of Old English "ġēa" which also means "so". "Yes" is a contraction of "ġēa sī", or something like "let it be so".

WalterBright 11y ago

The Romans also had writing. Writing helps a lot in stabilizing a language. Take a look at English before it was written down - it changed constantly and rapidly. 10,000 years is 500 generations. How many generations of family stories do you have? I have zero from further back than my great-grandparents, that's 3 generations ago, let alone 500. The claim of 10,000 year old stories is very extraordinary, and so extraordinary evidence is necessary to be convincing.

umanwizard 11y ago
> Take a look at English before it was written down - it changed constantly and rapidly. How can we possibly know how fast it was changing before it was written down? Also, English has been written down since around 500 and still changed constantly and rapidly after that.