3 ms·

What about doing all processing locally and storing only end-to-end encrypted data in servers?

dguaraglia 11y ago
Not really an option right now. The current generation of cameras out there are basically a Raspberry-Pi level computer with a better camera and a hardware h264 encoder. The moment you start doing something fancy, like running any non-trivial motion-detection algorithm, you are bound to run into performance or thermal (read: overheating) issues. Let's not even talk about machine learning. Just think how much money Nest would save in server time with such a setup :)
- bloomingfractal 11y ago
  I see, Thanks for the insightful answer! Regarding machine learning it would be nice to be able do the training in your desktop/laptop when it's idle or something like that. But it's very good to know this is a technological issue (as opposed to a business issue). Well, hope you smart folks solve this. Meanwhile, I'll keep tinkering with my raspberry pi and raspberry pi camera :)
- lazaroclapp 11y ago
  My intuition says we are not anywhere near there yet, but do you know if any video processing algorithms exist that can reasonably be executed on encrypted data? Basically, I know fully-homomorphic encryption is ridiculously inefficient in the general case. At the same time, I know of specialized homomorphic encryption algorithms that can operate on encrypted data of specific formats. There are efficient-ish algorithms for encrypted (social-network-type) graphs, and encrypted vote ballots. I was wondering if you or anyone in your team has come across any work on privacy-preserving encrypted audio/image/video processing? I assume this is a very hard problem, but I imagine someone has tried looking into it.
  - dguaraglia 11y ago
    I'm not really the person to answer that (I'm a lowly software engineer keeping the cogs greased m'lord!) I know at some point Larry (https://github.com/lwneal https://github.com/lwneal) was looking into that, at least cursorily. I'll refer to him as the authority on anything encryption-related at Dropcam (or anything, in general. Brilliant guy!)
- detaro 11y ago
  Can you share any reference on what the Nest servers actually do that a smartphone chipset isn't capable of? Various apps manage (from my limited knowledge about the field) quite impressive things.
  - dguaraglia 11y ago
    Can't really discuss specifics, but training machine learning models that share data between all your cameras would be pretty difficult, for example. Also, the lifespan of the processor would be highly reduced if you were constantly hammering it (thermal implications, etc. etc.) Again, in a few years that might not be an issue anymore :)
- pdkl95 11y ago
  Isn't HN supposed to be a forum popular with entrepreneurs? You sell the high-computation device as an optional extra. For full privacy, buy our turn-key home server! (optional video display available) If you're the DIY technical types who already runs a home server, may prefer our inexpensive software package that provides most of the features at much lower cost (some assembly required). (or something like that) The idea that a remote network is somehow a requirement is patently absurd.
  - dguaraglia 11y ago
    People overestimate the size of the hobbyist/geek market. Sure, in the Valley everyone and their dog can configure a NAS using a terminal from their latest generation iPad, but that's not the case outside of the Bay Area. I'd suggest you go to Sacramento and ask people on the street if they even know what a NAS or home server is (I once was dumb enough to start a startup there... you are one hour out of SF, but when it came to adversity to technology you might as well be in rural Alabama. This is the capital of California we are talking about!) Providing these "geek-to-geek" options (term isn't mine) looks like a great business idea when all your friends would use it. But again, the financial incentive is not there if it takes equivalent (or even less) effort to design something that can be used by millions of people instead of hundreds of thousands.
    - pdkl95 11y ago
      > I'd suggest you go to Sacramento and ask people on the street if they even know what a NAS or home server is Does Woodland count? I'll ask a few people. /me steps outside Well, my landlady and a few neighbors know what they are. You'll have to wait until tomorrow for Sacramento, but I've talked to a lot of people in that area too and very few would have had a problem with my addon server. If you treat people like idiots, they will respond in kind. > "geek-to-geek" options I may have included a geek option (the source code), but a turn-key server isn't any harder to setup than Nest's current devices. You think people can buy and install Nest's current thermostats, but won't be able to install a turn-key local server that needs literally the same WiFi information? > the financial incentive is not there Is this a euphemism for "cannot monetize their data"?

Not really an option right now. The current generation of cameras out there are basically a Raspberry-Pi level computer with a better camera and a hardware h264 encoder. The moment you start doing something fancy, like running any non-trivial motion-detection algorithm, you are bound to run into performance or thermal (read: overheating) issues. Let's not even talk about machine learning. Just think how much money Nest would save in server time with such a setup :)

bloomingfractal 11y ago
I see, Thanks for the insightful answer! Regarding machine learning it would be nice to be able do the training in your desktop/laptop when it's idle or something like that. But it's very good to know this is a technological issue (as opposed to a business issue). Well, hope you smart folks solve this. Meanwhile, I'll keep tinkering with my raspberry pi and raspberry pi camera :)
lazaroclapp 11y ago
My intuition says we are not anywhere near there yet, but do you know if any video processing algorithms exist that can reasonably be executed on encrypted data? Basically, I know fully-homomorphic encryption is ridiculously inefficient in the general case. At the same time, I know of specialized homomorphic encryption algorithms that can operate on encrypted data of specific formats. There are efficient-ish algorithms for encrypted (social-network-type) graphs, and encrypted vote ballots. I was wondering if you or anyone in your team has come across any work on privacy-preserving encrypted audio/image/video processing? I assume this is a very hard problem, but I imagine someone has tried looking into it.
- dguaraglia 11y ago
  I'm not really the person to answer that (I'm a lowly software engineer keeping the cogs greased m'lord!) I know at some point Larry (https://github.com/lwneal https://github.com/lwneal) was looking into that, at least cursorily. I'll refer to him as the authority on anything encryption-related at Dropcam (or anything, in general. Brilliant guy!)
detaro 11y ago
Can you share any reference on what the Nest servers actually do that a smartphone chipset isn't capable of? Various apps manage (from my limited knowledge about the field) quite impressive things.
- dguaraglia 11y ago
  Can't really discuss specifics, but training machine learning models that share data between all your cameras would be pretty difficult, for example. Also, the lifespan of the processor would be highly reduced if you were constantly hammering it (thermal implications, etc. etc.) Again, in a few years that might not be an issue anymore :)
pdkl95 11y ago
Isn't HN supposed to be a forum popular with entrepreneurs? You sell the high-computation device as an optional extra. For full privacy, buy our turn-key home server! (optional video display available) If you're the DIY technical types who already runs a home server, may prefer our inexpensive software package that provides most of the features at much lower cost (some assembly required). (or something like that) The idea that a remote network is somehow a requirement is patently absurd.
- dguaraglia 11y ago
  People overestimate the size of the hobbyist/geek market. Sure, in the Valley everyone and their dog can configure a NAS using a terminal from their latest generation iPad, but that's not the case outside of the Bay Area. I'd suggest you go to Sacramento and ask people on the street if they even know what a NAS or home server is (I once was dumb enough to start a startup there... you are one hour out of SF, but when it came to adversity to technology you might as well be in rural Alabama. This is the capital of California we are talking about!) Providing these "geek-to-geek" options (term isn't mine) looks like a great business idea when all your friends would use it. But again, the financial incentive is not there if it takes equivalent (or even less) effort to design something that can be used by millions of people instead of hundreds of thousands.
  - pdkl95 11y ago
    > I'd suggest you go to Sacramento and ask people on the street if they even know what a NAS or home server is Does Woodland count? I'll ask a few people. /me steps outside Well, my landlady and a few neighbors know what they are. You'll have to wait until tomorrow for Sacramento, but I've talked to a lot of people in that area too and very few would have had a problem with my addon server. If you treat people like idiots, they will respond in kind. > "geek-to-geek" options I may have included a geek option (the source code), but a turn-key server isn't any harder to setup than Nest's current devices. You think people can buy and install Nest's current thermostats, but won't be able to install a turn-key local server that needs literally the same WiFi information? > the financial incentive is not there Is this a euphemism for "cannot monetize their data"?