4 ms·

There are white frats, black frats, party frats, and studious frats. You can justify generalizing all you want but it still reeks of ignorance. I'm sorry that

by watty 11y ago

There are white frats, black frats, party frats, and studious frats. You can justify generalizing all you want but it still reeks of ignorance. I'm sorry that some of your friends from highschool turned into douchenozzles, I'm sure if they didn't join a frat they'd be outstanding citizens.

solipsism 11y ago
I get what you're saying, but surely you can meet the OP somewhere closer to the middle? Fraternities seem to have done their part to earn their poor reputation, if one extrapolates from the information most of us are exposed to. When incidents of racism are publicized, they usually have to do with fraternity members. When incidents of the worst kinds of misogeny are publicized, they usually have to do with fraternity members. Those of us who are grossed out by frats aren't making this stuff up. Obviously the apparent trend could be wrong. You could argue that mainstream media is unfairly biased against fraternities. Or that the good (or boring) frats don't do anything sensational. But, in that case, your argument shouldn't be, "You should never generalize!!" The response to that knee-jerk reaction is, "Um... I'm not blind. I read what I read. I see what I see. I have experienced what I have experienced, and it tells me that frat boys are assholes." Instead you could acknowledge that the apparent trend exists and is real, but provide evidence or reasoning for the trend being misleading.
- striking 11y ago
  The burden of proof is on the commenter that generalized. The plural of anecdote is not data. Generalizing that widely without very explicit proof is a pretty poor idea, from an argumentative standpoint. Meanwhile, plenty of frats also do projects that improve their communities and campuses, and raise money for good causes. The "apparent trend" doesn't exist, and if it does I'll ask you to prove it.
  - solipsism 11y ago
    The "apparent trend" doesn't exist Prove the "apparent trend" exists? Okay, let's try to "prove" it to you. I just did the following google search: site:cnn.com "fraternity members". Let's see what the "apparent trend" is! Starting at the top: 1. Pi Delta Psi members charged in hazing incident 2. Video shows chilling aftermath of university shooting (victims AND actor(s) were fraternity members/pledges, btw) 3. Zeta Beta Tau fraternity members disrespected us, wounded veterans say 4. New clues in death of Clemson fraternity pledge Tucker Hipps (this one's about hazing) 5. Schools knew of trouble before student deaths (hazing) 6. Video shows chilling aftermath of university shooting (same incident as 2.) 7. Sigma Nu frat at Old Dominion suspended for offensive banners 8. SAE brothers at OU facing death threats, assaults, lawyer says (don't get the title wrong, this one is as much about the racist chants of SAE frat members caught on video as it is about the death threats they received afterward) 9. U. of Oklahoma fraternity shuttered after racist chant 10. Fraternities: 'A form of American apartheid' (Opinion) So, you still think the "apparent trend" doesn't exist? You could get similar results doing an informal poll. Just walk around asking people who weren't in a frat, "What do you think of frats?" As I said originally, all of this could be biased and misleading and just plain wrong. But not at least saying "Yeah, I admit, frats appear to be pretty fucked up" is just disingenuous and isn't going to convince anyone. The burden of proof is on the commenter that generalized.. The plural of anecdote is not data... Generalizing that widely without very explicit proof is a pretty poor idea, from an argumentative standpoint.... and if it does I'll ask you to prove it As a skeptic myself, the fact that so many of us can't seem to understand that human lives and opinions are not run by deductive reasoning and exhaustive proofs really does us a disservice. If you want to change minds and make real change, you should get to know how people think. If you want to be considered an out-of-touch blow-hard, keep on talking about the burden of proof. Trust me, I've been that guy, I know.
    - striking 11y ago
      I realize I may have been fairly harsh in my choice of words. I'm making a note now not to get so angry. I can admit that the media portrays frats as "fucked up", I just don't agree that that's the truth. I think I may have misread your argument, or in any case responded to the wrong part of it. I agree that frats could be kept under better watch by universities and colleges, and that those specific case that you show shouldn't have happened. At the same time, though, frats are not just a means to an end for partying and racism at college. This much is clear because of the good many frats do for their communities. I'll concede that there's an apparent trend portrayed by the media. I just disagree with it. > out-of-touch blow-hard I'll agree with this one too. Sorry.
  - jdmichal 11y ago
    > The plural of anecdote is not data. I never understood this sentiment. That's exactly what data is; we call them surveys or polls.
    - striking 11y ago
      Anecdotes often lack rigidity or quantification, and they may be based on preconceived notions rather than genuine hypotheses. You're right in a sense, but you have to be careful as to how you sample anecdotes for them to be factual rather than anecdotal evidence. "I talked to some guys from a frat and they were mean, thus all frat guys are mean" does not logically follow.
- forgottenpass 11y ago
  You know you're just making the case for sterotyping without using the word "sterotype", right? I'm not being snarky, for the purpose of this post I'll explicitly state I'm not making the case that all stereotyping is bad (and not not saying that either). It's much easier to make the case that frats in general are too amalgamous to be held to their sterotype, and that frat membership is not a prerequisite to fitting the sterotype.
  - solipsism 11y ago
    You know you're just making the case for sterotyping without using the word "sterotype", right? No, I don't know where you get that from. I'm not arguing that prejudicial stereotypes are good or should be used. I'm suggesting that the strategy of pretending a stereotype doesn't exist is a poor strategy for fighting the use of prejudicial stereotypes. We all know our brains are unbelievably bad at statistics. You're not going to get humans to all of a sudden start applying rigorous probabilistic analysis and deductive reasoning to inform their opinions. You can give statistical reasoning to your white friends for why they shouldn't cross the street when they see a group of brown or black kids dressed "like gang members" up ahead. You might be right, and they might even agree. And guess how much difference that will make the next time the situation comes up? It's a strategy that's as ignorant of human nature as Communism and just as likely to be successful.

by watty 11y ago

solipsism 11y ago

I get what you're saying, but surely you can meet the OP somewhere closer to the middle? Fraternities seem to have done their part to earn their poor reputation, if one extrapolates from the information most of us are exposed to. When incidents of racism are publicized, they usually have to do with fraternity members. When incidents of the worst kinds of misogeny are publicized, they usually have to do with fraternity members. Those of us who are grossed out by frats aren't making this stuff up. Obviously the apparent trend could be wrong. You could argue that mainstream media is unfairly biased against fraternities. Or that the good (or boring) frats don't do anything sensational. But, in that case, your argument shouldn't be, "You should never generalize!!" The response to that knee-jerk reaction is, "Um... I'm not blind. I read what I read. I see what I see. I have experienced what I have experienced, and it tells me that frat boys are assholes." Instead you could acknowledge that the apparent trend exists and is real, but provide evidence or reasoning for the trend being misleading.

striking 11y ago
The burden of proof is on the commenter that generalized. The plural of anecdote is not data. Generalizing that widely without very explicit proof is a pretty poor idea, from an argumentative standpoint. Meanwhile, plenty of frats also do projects that improve their communities and campuses, and raise money for good causes. The "apparent trend" doesn't exist, and if it does I'll ask you to prove it.
- solipsism 11y ago
  The "apparent trend" doesn't exist Prove the "apparent trend" exists? Okay, let's try to "prove" it to you. I just did the following google search: site:cnn.com "fraternity members". Let's see what the "apparent trend" is! Starting at the top: 1. Pi Delta Psi members charged in hazing incident 2. Video shows chilling aftermath of university shooting (victims AND actor(s) were fraternity members/pledges, btw) 3. Zeta Beta Tau fraternity members disrespected us, wounded veterans say 4. New clues in death of Clemson fraternity pledge Tucker Hipps (this one's about hazing) 5. Schools knew of trouble before student deaths (hazing) 6. Video shows chilling aftermath of university shooting (same incident as 2.) 7. Sigma Nu frat at Old Dominion suspended for offensive banners 8. SAE brothers at OU facing death threats, assaults, lawyer says (don't get the title wrong, this one is as much about the racist chants of SAE frat members caught on video as it is about the death threats they received afterward) 9. U. of Oklahoma fraternity shuttered after racist chant 10. Fraternities: 'A form of American apartheid' (Opinion) So, you still think the "apparent trend" doesn't exist? You could get similar results doing an informal poll. Just walk around asking people who weren't in a frat, "What do you think of frats?" As I said originally, all of this could be biased and misleading and just plain wrong. But not at least saying "Yeah, I admit, frats appear to be pretty fucked up" is just disingenuous and isn't going to convince anyone. The burden of proof is on the commenter that generalized.. The plural of anecdote is not data... Generalizing that widely without very explicit proof is a pretty poor idea, from an argumentative standpoint.... and if it does I'll ask you to prove it As a skeptic myself, the fact that so many of us can't seem to understand that human lives and opinions are not run by deductive reasoning and exhaustive proofs really does us a disservice. If you want to change minds and make real change, you should get to know how people think. If you want to be considered an out-of-touch blow-hard, keep on talking about the burden of proof. Trust me, I've been that guy, I know.
  - striking 11y ago
    I realize I may have been fairly harsh in my choice of words. I'm making a note now not to get so angry. I can admit that the media portrays frats as "fucked up", I just don't agree that that's the truth. I think I may have misread your argument, or in any case responded to the wrong part of it. I agree that frats could be kept under better watch by universities and colleges, and that those specific case that you show shouldn't have happened. At the same time, though, frats are not just a means to an end for partying and racism at college. This much is clear because of the good many frats do for their communities. I'll concede that there's an apparent trend portrayed by the media. I just disagree with it. > out-of-touch blow-hard I'll agree with this one too. Sorry.
- jdmichal 11y ago
  > The plural of anecdote is not data. I never understood this sentiment. That's exactly what data is; we call them surveys or polls.
  - striking 11y ago
    Anecdotes often lack rigidity or quantification, and they may be based on preconceived notions rather than genuine hypotheses. You're right in a sense, but you have to be careful as to how you sample anecdotes for them to be factual rather than anecdotal evidence. "I talked to some guys from a frat and they were mean, thus all frat guys are mean" does not logically follow.
forgottenpass 11y ago
You know you're just making the case for sterotyping without using the word "sterotype", right? I'm not being snarky, for the purpose of this post I'll explicitly state I'm not making the case that all stereotyping is bad (and not not saying that either). It's much easier to make the case that frats in general are too amalgamous to be held to their sterotype, and that frat membership is not a prerequisite to fitting the sterotype.
- solipsism 11y ago
  You know you're just making the case for sterotyping without using the word "sterotype", right? No, I don't know where you get that from. I'm not arguing that prejudicial stereotypes are good or should be used. I'm suggesting that the strategy of pretending a stereotype doesn't exist is a poor strategy for fighting the use of prejudicial stereotypes. We all know our brains are unbelievably bad at statistics. You're not going to get humans to all of a sudden start applying rigorous probabilistic analysis and deductive reasoning to inform their opinions. You can give statistical reasoning to your white friends for why they shouldn't cross the street when they see a group of brown or black kids dressed "like gang members" up ahead. You might be right, and they might even agree. And guess how much difference that will make the next time the situation comes up? It's a strategy that's as ignorant of human nature as Communism and just as likely to be successful.