6 ms·

Frats are like the perfect petri dish for misogynism and racism. You get a bunch of white guys together in a usually racially and always sexually homogeneous c

Frats are like the perfect petri dish for misogynism and racism. You get a bunch of white guys together in a usually racially and always sexually homogeneous club, and these kids, who don't know much about the world yet, suddenly don't have to be accountable for saying racist or sexist things. I have watched friends of mine from high school join a frat in college, and you know what? They mostly turned into douchenozzles. Compare to something like the punk scene where radical politics, antiracism, lgbt rights, antimisogyny are almost prerequisites for membership, the community is diverse, and racism/sexism/homophobia are often called out on the spot...you see ppl go in with hateful attitudes and come out more tolerant people.

watty 11y ago
There are white frats, black frats, party frats, and studious frats. You can justify generalizing all you want but it still reeks of ignorance. I'm sorry that some of your friends from highschool turned into douchenozzles, I'm sure if they didn't join a frat they'd be outstanding citizens.
- solipsism 11y ago
  I get what you're saying, but surely you can meet the OP somewhere closer to the middle? Fraternities seem to have done their part to earn their poor reputation, if one extrapolates from the information most of us are exposed to. When incidents of racism are publicized, they usually have to do with fraternity members. When incidents of the worst kinds of misogeny are publicized, they usually have to do with fraternity members. Those of us who are grossed out by frats aren't making this stuff up. Obviously the apparent trend could be wrong. You could argue that mainstream media is unfairly biased against fraternities. Or that the good (or boring) frats don't do anything sensational. But, in that case, your argument shouldn't be, "You should never generalize!!" The response to that knee-jerk reaction is, "Um... I'm not blind. I read what I read. I see what I see. I have experienced what I have experienced, and it tells me that frat boys are assholes." Instead you could acknowledge that the apparent trend exists and is real, but provide evidence or reasoning for the trend being misleading.
  - striking 11y ago
    The burden of proof is on the commenter that generalized. The plural of anecdote is not data. Generalizing that widely without very explicit proof is a pretty poor idea, from an argumentative standpoint. Meanwhile, plenty of frats also do projects that improve their communities and campuses, and raise money for good causes. The "apparent trend" doesn't exist, and if it does I'll ask you to prove it.
    - solipsism 11y ago
      The "apparent trend" doesn't exist Prove the "apparent trend" exists? Okay, let's try to "prove" it to you. I just did the following google search: site:cnn.com "fraternity members". Let's see what the "apparent trend" is! Starting at the top: 1. Pi Delta Psi members charged in hazing incident 2. Video shows chilling aftermath of university shooting (victims AND actor(s) were fraternity members/pledges, btw) 3. Zeta Beta Tau fraternity members disrespected us, wounded veterans say 4. New clues in death of Clemson fraternity pledge Tucker Hipps (this one's about hazing) 5. Schools knew of trouble before student deaths (hazing) 6. Video shows chilling aftermath of university shooting (same incident as 2.) 7. Sigma Nu frat at Old Dominion suspended for offensive banners 8. SAE brothers at OU facing death threats, assaults, lawyer says (don't get the title wrong, this one is as much about the racist chants of SAE frat members caught on video as it is about the death threats they received afterward) 9. U. of Oklahoma fraternity shuttered after racist chant 10. Fraternities: 'A form of American apartheid' (Opinion) So, you still think the "apparent trend" doesn't exist? You could get similar results doing an informal poll. Just walk around asking people who weren't in a frat, "What do you think of frats?" As I said originally, all of this could be biased and misleading and just plain wrong. But not at least saying "Yeah, I admit, frats appear to be pretty fucked up" is just disingenuous and isn't going to convince anyone. The burden of proof is on the commenter that generalized.. The plural of anecdote is not data... Generalizing that widely without very explicit proof is a pretty poor idea, from an argumentative standpoint.... and if it does I'll ask you to prove it As a skeptic myself, the fact that so many of us can't seem to understand that human lives and opinions are not run by deductive reasoning and exhaustive proofs really does us a disservice. If you want to change minds and make real change, you should get to know how people think. If you want to be considered an out-of-touch blow-hard, keep on talking about the burden of proof. Trust me, I've been that guy, I know.
Kluny 11y ago
Just wanna say that I don't think "white" is a requirement. It's the homogeneity of culture, background, and privilege level that makes it possible, though those things are pretty highly correlated with whiteness in the USA.
striking 11y ago
There's some irony in the fact that you wrote a bunch of fairly intolerant generalizations while mentioning hatefulness and tolerance. Your friends from high school are responsible for themselves. Consider for a moment that perhaps your friends just grew up to be "douchenozzles" on their own, without the influence of a frat. Your assertion that frats are racially homogenous is outright wrong and I'll ask you to cite your claims. And you think some members of frats aren't gay or similar? Something something, generalization, plural of anecdote... For someone who champions tolerance, you don't play the role very well.
- mineshaftgap 11y ago
  Yes he is a bigot, but for the left so it is ok.

watty 11y ago

There are white frats, black frats, party frats, and studious frats. You can justify generalizing all you want but it still reeks of ignorance. I'm sorry that some of your friends from highschool turned into douchenozzles, I'm sure if they didn't join a frat they'd be outstanding citizens.

solipsism 11y ago
I get what you're saying, but surely you can meet the OP somewhere closer to the middle? Fraternities seem to have done their part to earn their poor reputation, if one extrapolates from the information most of us are exposed to. When incidents of racism are publicized, they usually have to do with fraternity members. When incidents of the worst kinds of misogeny are publicized, they usually have to do with fraternity members. Those of us who are grossed out by frats aren't making this stuff up. Obviously the apparent trend could be wrong. You could argue that mainstream media is unfairly biased against fraternities. Or that the good (or boring) frats don't do anything sensational. But, in that case, your argument shouldn't be, "You should never generalize!!" The response to that knee-jerk reaction is, "Um... I'm not blind. I read what I read. I see what I see. I have experienced what I have experienced, and it tells me that frat boys are assholes." Instead you could acknowledge that the apparent trend exists and is real, but provide evidence or reasoning for the trend being misleading.
- striking 11y ago
  The burden of proof is on the commenter that generalized. The plural of anecdote is not data. Generalizing that widely without very explicit proof is a pretty poor idea, from an argumentative standpoint. Meanwhile, plenty of frats also do projects that improve their communities and campuses, and raise money for good causes. The "apparent trend" doesn't exist, and if it does I'll ask you to prove it.
  - solipsism 11y ago
    The "apparent trend" doesn't exist Prove the "apparent trend" exists? Okay, let's try to "prove" it to you. I just did the following google search: site:cnn.com "fraternity members". Let's see what the "apparent trend" is! Starting at the top: 1. Pi Delta Psi members charged in hazing incident 2. Video shows chilling aftermath of university shooting (victims AND actor(s) were fraternity members/pledges, btw) 3. Zeta Beta Tau fraternity members disrespected us, wounded veterans say 4. New clues in death of Clemson fraternity pledge Tucker Hipps (this one's about hazing) 5. Schools knew of trouble before student deaths (hazing) 6. Video shows chilling aftermath of university shooting (same incident as 2.) 7. Sigma Nu frat at Old Dominion suspended for offensive banners 8. SAE brothers at OU facing death threats, assaults, lawyer says (don't get the title wrong, this one is as much about the racist chants of SAE frat members caught on video as it is about the death threats they received afterward) 9. U. of Oklahoma fraternity shuttered after racist chant 10. Fraternities: 'A form of American apartheid' (Opinion) So, you still think the "apparent trend" doesn't exist? You could get similar results doing an informal poll. Just walk around asking people who weren't in a frat, "What do you think of frats?" As I said originally, all of this could be biased and misleading and just plain wrong. But not at least saying "Yeah, I admit, frats appear to be pretty fucked up" is just disingenuous and isn't going to convince anyone. The burden of proof is on the commenter that generalized.. The plural of anecdote is not data... Generalizing that widely without very explicit proof is a pretty poor idea, from an argumentative standpoint.... and if it does I'll ask you to prove it As a skeptic myself, the fact that so many of us can't seem to understand that human lives and opinions are not run by deductive reasoning and exhaustive proofs really does us a disservice. If you want to change minds and make real change, you should get to know how people think. If you want to be considered an out-of-touch blow-hard, keep on talking about the burden of proof. Trust me, I've been that guy, I know.

Kluny 11y ago

Just wanna say that I don't think "white" is a requirement. It's the homogeneity of culture, background, and privilege level that makes it possible, though those things are pretty highly correlated with whiteness in the USA.

striking 11y ago

There's some irony in the fact that you wrote a bunch of fairly intolerant generalizations while mentioning hatefulness and tolerance. Your friends from high school are responsible for themselves. Consider for a moment that perhaps your friends just grew up to be "douchenozzles" on their own, without the influence of a frat. Your assertion that frats are racially homogenous is outright wrong and I'll ask you to cite your claims. And you think some members of frats aren't gay or similar? Something something, generalization, plural of anecdote... For someone who champions tolerance, you don't play the role very well.

mineshaftgap 11y ago
Yes he is a bigot, but for the left so it is ok.