3 ms·

His comparison with Stalin may be hyperbolic, but the article you cited gives Churchill's response to the famine you think is unfair to blame on him: Up to

His comparison with Stalin may be hyperbolic, but the article you cited gives Churchill's response to the famine you think is unfair to blame on him: Up to 3 million people starved to death while British officials begged Churchill to direct food supplies to the region. He bluntly refused. He raged that it was their own fault for "breeding like rabbits". At other times, he said the plague was "merrily" culling the population. >[Stalin] killed between 20-60m people with possibly the worst “machinery of killing” ever created does an injustice to the point you where trying to make And quoting or arguing that kind of unsubstantiated claptrap does a disservice to the point you are making. I don't believe you are a neo-Nazi, I think you just pulled the first result from Google on "how many people did Stalin kill", but in my experience it's usually people with right or extreme right agendas who try to paint Stalin as worse than Hitler by quoting such nonsensically high figures.

poof131 11y ago
My issue isn’t with placing some of the blame on Churchill but all of it. The world was in a war where untold millions were killed and the outcome was anything but certain. My guess is that Churchill had to juggle multiple aspects of the decision, but the outcome and his words were used to paint the most unflattering picture in the linked article, perhaps justified, perhaps not, likely somewhere in-between. And I truly do appreciate counter viewpoints that expand my understanding of the world. The tragedy and his racist viewpoints clearly deserve more prominence in the histories of him. You attempt to discredit my take on Stalin with rhetorical flourish, so generously implying that “you don’t think I’m a neo-nazi”, yet you provide no evidence that he wasn’t a butcher. While I don’t think you are an “uneducated fascist”, most attempts to propagandize pro-Stalin viewpoints come from… Not a good way to change someone’s opinion if that is your goal. You did make a good catch on the first google link, but hardly surprising when providing supporting references in HN comments. Wikipedia has the number at 3-60 million, with 3 being the “officially” recorded number. [1] Perhaps you are right that Stalin was better than my interpretation, but you haven’t convinced me. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- hartpuff 11y ago
  >You attempt to discredit my take on Stalin with rhetorical flourish, so generously implying that “you don’t think I’m a neo-nazi”, yet you provide no evidence that he wasn’t a butcher. I didn't say he wasn't a "butcher", so why should I have to provide evidence to that effect? As for my "rhetorical flourish", most of the people online I see making the ludicrous claim that Stalin killed 50+ million people turn out to be Hitlerites. >Wikipedia has the number at 3-60 million, with 3 being the “officially” recorded number. [1] Perhaps you are right that Stalin was better than my interpretation, but you haven’t convinced me. Apparently neither has Wikipedia and every historian who places the figure at less than 20 million, such as William Rubinstein and Yale University's Timothy Snyder. As that Wikipedia article states, the 3-60 million wild guesses were before records became available after the demise of the Soviet Union. When researchers were able to study and analyse the records the ridiculously high estimates were revised drastically down.
argonaut 11y ago
There is a difference between refusing to send aid, and actively attempting to exterminate democracy, governments, and populations. Churchill largely did the first, and perhaps in small amounts did the second. Stalin generously and with great relish did the second. It's quite ridiculous to claim that Churchill is just as evil as Stalin, even if you believe Churchill is on-the-balance evil.
- hartpuff 11y ago
  >There is a difference between refusing to send aid, and actively attempting to exterminate democracy, governments, and populations. Perhaps you can explain the difference between deliberately not sending food to people you know will die without it, while revelling in their deaths, and "actively attempting to exterminate" them? Preferably from the point of view of the people being killed. >Churchill largely did the first, and perhaps in small amounts did the second. Of course. The 25% of the entire planet that made up the British Empire was a hotbed of free elections and democracy. >It's quite ridiculous to claim that Churchill is just as evil as Stalin, even if you believe Churchill is on-the-balance evil. I'll try and remember that, if I ever say Churchill was just as evil as Stalin.
  - argonaut 11y ago
    Direct causality, for one. If a person on the street who is starving asks me for food, and I decline and yell some epithet about the homeless, and keep walking, any reasonable person would consider that less evil than if I shot that person while yelling that epithet. At the end of the day, the direct cause of the famine were crop failures and the invasion of Burma, not Churchill's inaction. At the end of the day, the direct cause of the millions of deaths in famines in the USSR was Joseph Stalin's mass collectivization. You should remember it, because, to put it bluntly, if you ever said that in Western society, you would be laughed out of the room.
    - at5 11y ago
      Maybe because we in the west are biased towards our own and vilify the other? And quite frankly who gives a damn what the west thinks about one of its leaders? Hardly an objective POV is it? Why not ask the victims or observers with data and facts? In this case, given that Churchill was prime minister of a colonial power, its more akin to starving POWs while siphoning their crops to a different locale; a crime in any post war court. Your analogy is way off base. Would also add that part of the crop failures thing is because the British forced the locals to grow cash crops over several centuries. Funny how independent India has yet to have a drought that escalated into a famine and has effectively dealt with droughts huh?

poof131 11y ago

My issue isn’t with placing some of the blame on Churchill but all of it. The world was in a war where untold millions were killed and the outcome was anything but certain. My guess is that Churchill had to juggle multiple aspects of the decision, but the outcome and his words were used to paint the most unflattering picture in the linked article, perhaps justified, perhaps not, likely somewhere in-between. And I truly do appreciate counter viewpoints that expand my understanding of the world. The tragedy and his racist viewpoints clearly deserve more prominence in the histories of him. You attempt to discredit my take on Stalin with rhetorical flourish, so generously implying that “you don’t think I’m a neo-nazi”, yet you provide no evidence that he wasn’t a butcher. While I don’t think you are an “uneducated fascist”, most attempts to propagandize pro-Stalin viewpoints come from… Not a good way to change someone’s opinion if that is your goal. You did make a good catch on the first google link, but hardly surprising when providing supporting references in HN comments. Wikipedia has the number at 3-60 million, with 3 being the “officially” recorded number. [1] Perhaps you are right that Stalin was better than my interpretation, but you haven’t convinced me. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
hartpuff 11y ago
>You attempt to discredit my take on Stalin with rhetorical flourish, so generously implying that “you don’t think I’m a neo-nazi”, yet you provide no evidence that he wasn’t a butcher. I didn't say he wasn't a "butcher", so why should I have to provide evidence to that effect? As for my "rhetorical flourish", most of the people online I see making the ludicrous claim that Stalin killed 50+ million people turn out to be Hitlerites. >Wikipedia has the number at 3-60 million, with 3 being the “officially” recorded number. [1] Perhaps you are right that Stalin was better than my interpretation, but you haven’t convinced me. Apparently neither has Wikipedia and every historian who places the figure at less than 20 million, such as William Rubinstein and Yale University's Timothy Snyder. As that Wikipedia article states, the 3-60 million wild guesses were before records became available after the demise of the Soviet Union. When researchers were able to study and analyse the records the ridiculously high estimates were revised drastically down.

argonaut 11y ago

There is a difference between refusing to send aid, and actively attempting to exterminate democracy, governments, and populations. Churchill largely did the first, and perhaps in small amounts did the second. Stalin generously and with great relish did the second. It's quite ridiculous to claim that Churchill is just as evil as Stalin, even if you believe Churchill is on-the-balance evil.

hartpuff 11y ago
>There is a difference between refusing to send aid, and actively attempting to exterminate democracy, governments, and populations. Perhaps you can explain the difference between deliberately not sending food to people you know will die without it, while revelling in their deaths, and "actively attempting to exterminate" them? Preferably from the point of view of the people being killed. >Churchill largely did the first, and perhaps in small amounts did the second. Of course. The 25% of the entire planet that made up the British Empire was a hotbed of free elections and democracy. >It's quite ridiculous to claim that Churchill is just as evil as Stalin, even if you believe Churchill is on-the-balance evil. I'll try and remember that, if I ever say Churchill was just as evil as Stalin.
- argonaut 11y ago
  Direct causality, for one. If a person on the street who is starving asks me for food, and I decline and yell some epithet about the homeless, and keep walking, any reasonable person would consider that less evil than if I shot that person while yelling that epithet. At the end of the day, the direct cause of the famine were crop failures and the invasion of Burma, not Churchill's inaction. At the end of the day, the direct cause of the millions of deaths in famines in the USSR was Joseph Stalin's mass collectivization. You should remember it, because, to put it bluntly, if you ever said that in Western society, you would be laughed out of the room.
  - at5 11y ago
    Maybe because we in the west are biased towards our own and vilify the other? And quite frankly who gives a damn what the west thinks about one of its leaders? Hardly an objective POV is it? Why not ask the victims or observers with data and facts? In this case, given that Churchill was prime minister of a colonial power, its more akin to starving POWs while siphoning their crops to a different locale; a crime in any post war court. Your analogy is way off base. Would also add that part of the crop failures thing is because the British forced the locals to grow cash crops over several centuries. Funny how independent India has yet to have a drought that escalated into a famine and has effectively dealt with droughts huh?