4 ms·

Infrastructure for infrastructure's sake? If it crashes and forces the government to re-think things, you think this happens instantly? That crash is figuring

by ohashi 17y ago

Infrastructure for infrastructure's sake? If it crashes and forces the government to re-think things, you think this happens instantly? That crash is figuring things out and filling up the excess capacity.

jacquesm 17y ago
Better to spend it on roads than on cheap Chinese merchandise.
- houseabsolute 17y ago
  I happen to like cheap chinese merchandise. I'd rather pay $1500 for a Macbook Pro manufactured there than $2000 for one manufactured here.
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    Long term that's a losing strategy. It means you are willing to export all your production facilities to another country, creating a massive trade-imbalance in the process. Think about how strange it is that not just your macbook, but almost everything you can buy has been manufactured on the other side of the planet, can be transported, imported and still be sold cheaper than you could produce it locally. It's a bit like selling your birthright. Also, don't forget that those workers abroad are usually working in circumstances that local authorities would not tolerate. A nice bit of backstory about moving production to China. A few years ago, rubbermaid was forced to raise its prices because of the developments on the raw materials market. Wall-mart refused to accept the rise, dropped the rubbermaid product line, rubbermaid filed for bankruptcy, and then the whole production was moved to China and wall-mart signed a distribution deal with the new owners of the moulds.
    - houseabsolute 17y ago
      No, all it means I'd prefer Chinese people to do what they're good at, and Americans do what they're good at. If we can't manufacture cost-effectively in this country, then it's fine for it to happen somewhere else. I don't view manufacturing plants as a birthright.
      - jacquesm 17y ago
        Manufacturing cost effectively and manufacturing cost effectively while maintaining workplace safety, paying a living wage and respecting the environment are two different things, and it is the latter that you are comparing with the former. So the only reason why you can buy that stuff manufactured in China cheaper is because of a combination of lack of respect for human beings, sloppy environmental controls and unsafe work place practices. If those were brought up to the same standards that are held in the developed countries the prices would be roughly the same after import duties and transportation costs are figured in.
        houseabsolute 17y ago
        > Manufacturing cost effectively and manufacturing cost effectively while maintaining workplace safety, paying a living wage and respecting the environment are two different things, and it is the latter that you are comparing with the former. It would be interesting to see some objective measurements about how much of the cost difference is explained by which differences in practice. For example, I think the "living wage" paid to manufacturing employees in the U.S. frequently exceeds the real living wage by a substantial margin, which they exact from their employers via a monopoly on labor (unions).
        jacquesm 17y ago
        Let me give you just one example, not even looking at the cost of waste processing and such, because they don't apply to this story. A friend of mine is an interesting character, something of a mechanical/electrical genius, he can literally fix any machinery. One of his jobs involved flying to China to help with the repair of a machine that mass produced latex condoms. While he was there the proud owner of the condom factory announced he had just finished the creation of a factory for car jacks that were sold in large numbers to the big three car manufacturers for inclusion with their vehicles. He got a tour of the 'new' factory. He described a scene straight out of the worst of the beginnings of the industrial age. Workers, mostly women and children stood at endless tables in very bad light operating hand operated machine tools and tool-and-die stamping machines. Plenty of them were missing fingers or worse, and the pace was literally feverish, the noise deafening. It was the most unsafe machine shop he has ever seen and he's been in quite a few of them. Now, arguably this is low tech stuff, not comparable with your macbook, and I'd hope that Apple held their suppliers to a higher standard. But responsible waste management and safety cost a lot of money when you factor them in to the end price of a product, no matter whether it's a nike shoe, a macbook or a car jack.

by ohashi 17y ago

jacquesm 17y ago

Better to spend it on roads than on cheap Chinese merchandise.

houseabsolute 17y ago
I happen to like cheap chinese merchandise. I'd rather pay $1500 for a Macbook Pro manufactured there than $2000 for one manufactured here.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  Long term that's a losing strategy. It means you are willing to export all your production facilities to another country, creating a massive trade-imbalance in the process. Think about how strange it is that not just your macbook, but almost everything you can buy has been manufactured on the other side of the planet, can be transported, imported and still be sold cheaper than you could produce it locally. It's a bit like selling your birthright. Also, don't forget that those workers abroad are usually working in circumstances that local authorities would not tolerate. A nice bit of backstory about moving production to China. A few years ago, rubbermaid was forced to raise its prices because of the developments on the raw materials market. Wall-mart refused to accept the rise, dropped the rubbermaid product line, rubbermaid filed for bankruptcy, and then the whole production was moved to China and wall-mart signed a distribution deal with the new owners of the moulds.
  - houseabsolute 17y ago
    No, all it means I'd prefer Chinese people to do what they're good at, and Americans do what they're good at. If we can't manufacture cost-effectively in this country, then it's fine for it to happen somewhere else. I don't view manufacturing plants as a birthright.
    - jacquesm 17y ago
      Manufacturing cost effectively and manufacturing cost effectively while maintaining workplace safety, paying a living wage and respecting the environment are two different things, and it is the latter that you are comparing with the former. So the only reason why you can buy that stuff manufactured in China cheaper is because of a combination of lack of respect for human beings, sloppy environmental controls and unsafe work place practices. If those were brought up to the same standards that are held in the developed countries the prices would be roughly the same after import duties and transportation costs are figured in.
      - houseabsolute 17y ago
        > Manufacturing cost effectively and manufacturing cost effectively while maintaining workplace safety, paying a living wage and respecting the environment are two different things, and it is the latter that you are comparing with the former. It would be interesting to see some objective measurements about how much of the cost difference is explained by which differences in practice. For example, I think the "living wage" paid to manufacturing employees in the U.S. frequently exceeds the real living wage by a substantial margin, which they exact from their employers via a monopoly on labor (unions).
        jacquesm 17y ago
        Let me give you just one example, not even looking at the cost of waste processing and such, because they don't apply to this story. A friend of mine is an interesting character, something of a mechanical/electrical genius, he can literally fix any machinery. One of his jobs involved flying to China to help with the repair of a machine that mass produced latex condoms. While he was there the proud owner of the condom factory announced he had just finished the creation of a factory for car jacks that were sold in large numbers to the big three car manufacturers for inclusion with their vehicles. He got a tour of the 'new' factory. He described a scene straight out of the worst of the beginnings of the industrial age. Workers, mostly women and children stood at endless tables in very bad light operating hand operated machine tools and tool-and-die stamping machines. Plenty of them were missing fingers or worse, and the pace was literally feverish, the noise deafening. It was the most unsafe machine shop he has ever seen and he's been in quite a few of them. Now, arguably this is low tech stuff, not comparable with your macbook, and I'd hope that Apple held their suppliers to a higher standard. But responsible waste management and safety cost a lot of money when you factor them in to the end price of a product, no matter whether it's a nike shoe, a macbook or a car jack.