8 ms·

Lost me at "Tabs, not spaces." :p

by rsendv 11y ago

tjallingt 11y ago
Tabs beat spaces in every single way; - only press a single key instead of tapping 2 or 4 times. - alter their width within your IDE to suit your preferences. - they are "designed" to intent a piece of text with unlike spaces which are "designed" to break words. But use whatever you like as long as it's consistent :)
- scrollaway 11y ago
  Well said. I see tabs as an accessibility feature. https://leclan.ch/tabs https://leclan.ch/tabs But like you said, consistency matters a lot more.
- oneeyedpigeon 11y ago
  I prefer tabs BUT ... don't you have to throw out any line-length requirements if you use them?
  - krisdol 11y ago
    Nah just hard wrap at the line length. Imagine everyone setting their preferred tab width and hard wrapping. That'll be fun for looking at VCS diffs...
- rsendv 11y ago
  Yeah, consistency trumps preference.
- luso_brazilian 11y ago
  > But use whatever you like as long as it's consistent I would add "as long it's consistent with the codebase and the practices of the project" Mixing tabs and spaces in a project is very unpleasant and changing one for the other wreaks havoc in the blame functionality
  - jonhohle 11y ago
    git blame -w …
- napperjabber 11y ago
  Spaces are more consistent than tabs. https://www.jwz.org/doc/tabs-vs-spaces.html https://www.jwz.org/doc/tabs-vs-spaces.html
  - tychuz 11y ago
    Someone doesn't like HackerNews.
    - napperjabber 11y ago
      Hah, news to me.
- Zikes 11y ago
  We really shouldn't get into this, but I can't help myself. - Every single text editor that's come after notepad.exe has had automatic tab/space conversion. Pressing tab inserts N spaces, pressing backspace un-indents N spaces, etc. - In some languages, this is not a feature. 2-character tabs, using two tabs to indent for alignment: var myVar = 1, otherVar = 2, anotherVar = 3; Opened later in an editor using 4-character tabs: var myVar = 1; otherVar = 2, anotherVar = 3; - {}[]<> and more aren't used for anything close to their original literary intent.
  - oneeyedpigeon 11y ago
    Tabs should never be used for lining things up, for that very reason. In your example, you've stopped 'indenting' and started 'aligning'. And it's only 'working' because "var " % 2 == 0; other language keywords will screw that up.
    - Zikes 11y ago
      Sounds to me like you're saying there's no objectively correct answer that works for all languages and situations, which I agree with.
      - scrollaway 11y ago
        There... is, actually. If you don't actually attempt to align the variable names, then what you're doing is "indenting items in a list", essentially. In general, you should avoid aligning unless the readability gains are significant. Aligning things means that you end up re-aligning when you add or remove longer items. This increases maintenance and pollutes diffs (which also means code reviews and git logs).
        jahewson 11y ago
        My editor aligns things for me - no effort at all.
- krisdol 11y ago
  "- only press a single key instead of tapping 2 or 4 times." I use spaces and I still only hit a single key.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- MrScruff 11y ago
  Tabs beat spaces in every single way; Spaces look the same in whatever application you might be using to view a source file, be it any number of random command line tools, or fully fledged IDEs.
  - nielsbot 11y ago
    Assuming monospaced font.
- overcast 11y ago
  So setup your tab to insert four spaces, like every editor on the planet.
- insulanian 11y ago
  > only press a single key instead of tapping 2 or 4 times. Consider changing your editor.
- jahewson 11y ago
  Ah, tabs are bad, because if you let people choose their own tab widths then it becomes impossible to align anything anymore. It makes it impossible to align anything which is != a tab width. Tabs aren't "designed" for indenting text: they're a hangover from typewriters, where they were literally metal tabs used for creating tables. Tabs don't carry semantics - that's the job of the language's syntax. Tabs as a concept should be confined to history IMHO, especially their implementation in modern word processors, where they just give you ad-hoc semantic-less tables. The tab key on the otherhand is great for indenting - in most sensible editors it will insert a configurable number of spaces. Perfect.
  - Stratoscope 11y ago
    There is an easy solution to the alignment problem: don't align stuff. I haven't used column alignment in at least 20 years. I don't miss it at all, and I'll never go back to aligning things. Column alignment causes far too many problems. Once you give it up, any advantage of spaces over tabs disappears. Code written without alignment reads the same whatever you use for indentation, and it is even perfectly readable in a proportional font! I've written a few comments on HN about the problems with column alignment and the advantages of an alignment-free style. Here are a couple of previous discussions with specific examples: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10206860 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10206860 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9469713 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9469713
  - masukomi 11y ago
    This is so very wrong.... > tabs are bad, because if you let people choose their own tab widths then it becomes impossible to align anything anymore. In what world is that true. If you indent your code with tabs, and I indent your code with tabs and I show my tabs as 4 chars wide and you show yours and 8 EVERYTHING IS STILL ALIGNED. It's just greater or lesser levels of indentation. You only have problems when you MIX tabs and spaces. Be consistent in your use and you won't have problems. > It makes it impossible to align anything which is != a tab width. Yes. So? Don't mix tabs and spaces. > Tabs aren't "designed" for indenting text: they're a hangover from typewriters, where they were literally metal tabs used for creating tables. What is a table? It's a tool FOR ALIGNING MULTIPLE COLUMNS OF TEXT... so yes, they ARE designed for indenting text. For a more fully thought out argument on why it's a dick move to use spaces as pretend tabs: http://weblog.masukomi.org/2010/07/26/why-you-should-never-indent-code-with-spaces/ http://weblog.masukomi.org/2010/07/26/why-you-should-never-i...
- aubergene 11y ago
  I agree, particularly with Elastic Tabstops http://nickgravgaard.com/elastic-tabstops/ http://nickgravgaard.com/elastic-tabstops/
DrJokepu 11y ago
Oh god, not that one again. I have no idea which one I'm using and quite frankly, I don't want to know either.
MPiccinato 11y ago
Out of curiosity does anyone know the default for Xcode? Looking at my settings it has indent using 4 spaces and I don't remember ever setting it.
int_handler 11y ago
Also, the examples on the page all seem to use 4 spaces instead of a tab.
Mayzie 11y ago
It is correct. Only fools presenting flawed arguments opine for spaces rather than tabs for indentation. That's right, indentation, NOT alignment. Spaces are for alignment, tabs for indentation. Not tabs for indentation and alignment, not spaces for indentation and alignment, but rather tabs for indentation and spaces for alignment.

Lost me at "Tabs, not spaces." :p

by rsendv 11y ago

Lost me at "Tabs, not spaces." :p

Tabs beat spaces in every single way; - only press a single key instead of tapping 2 or 4 times. - alter their width within your IDE to suit your preferences. - they are "designed" to intent a piece of text with unlike spaces which are "designed" to break words. But use whatever you like as long as it's consistent :)

scrollaway 11y ago
Well said. I see tabs as an accessibility feature. https://leclan.ch/tabs https://leclan.ch/tabs But like you said, consistency matters a lot more.
oneeyedpigeon 11y ago
I prefer tabs BUT ... don't you have to throw out any line-length requirements if you use them?
- krisdol 11y ago
  Nah just hard wrap at the line length. Imagine everyone setting their preferred tab width and hard wrapping. That'll be fun for looking at VCS diffs...
rsendv 11y ago
Yeah, consistency trumps preference.
luso_brazilian 11y ago
> But use whatever you like as long as it's consistent I would add "as long it's consistent with the codebase and the practices of the project" Mixing tabs and spaces in a project is very unpleasant and changing one for the other wreaks havoc in the blame functionality
- jonhohle 11y ago
  git blame -w …
napperjabber 11y ago
Spaces are more consistent than tabs. https://www.jwz.org/doc/tabs-vs-spaces.html https://www.jwz.org/doc/tabs-vs-spaces.html
- tychuz 11y ago
  Someone doesn't like HackerNews.
  - napperjabber 11y ago
    Hah, news to me.
Zikes 11y ago
We really shouldn't get into this, but I can't help myself. - Every single text editor that's come after notepad.exe has had automatic tab/space conversion. Pressing tab inserts N spaces, pressing backspace un-indents N spaces, etc. - In some languages, this is not a feature. 2-character tabs, using two tabs to indent for alignment: var myVar = 1, otherVar = 2, anotherVar = 3; Opened later in an editor using 4-character tabs: var myVar = 1; otherVar = 2, anotherVar = 3; - {}[]<> and more aren't used for anything close to their original literary intent.
- oneeyedpigeon 11y ago
  Tabs should never be used for lining things up, for that very reason. In your example, you've stopped 'indenting' and started 'aligning'. And it's only 'working' because "var " % 2 == 0; other language keywords will screw that up.
  - Zikes 11y ago
    Sounds to me like you're saying there's no objectively correct answer that works for all languages and situations, which I agree with.
    - scrollaway 11y ago
      There... is, actually. If you don't actually attempt to align the variable names, then what you're doing is "indenting items in a list", essentially. In general, you should avoid aligning unless the readability gains are significant. Aligning things means that you end up re-aligning when you add or remove longer items. This increases maintenance and pollutes diffs (which also means code reviews and git logs).
      - jahewson 11y ago
        My editor aligns things for me - no effort at all.
krisdol 11y ago
"- only press a single key instead of tapping 2 or 4 times." I use spaces and I still only hit a single key.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
MrScruff 11y ago
Tabs beat spaces in every single way; Spaces look the same in whatever application you might be using to view a source file, be it any number of random command line tools, or fully fledged IDEs.
- nielsbot 11y ago
  Assuming monospaced font.
overcast 11y ago
So setup your tab to insert four spaces, like every editor on the planet.
insulanian 11y ago
> only press a single key instead of tapping 2 or 4 times. Consider changing your editor.
jahewson 11y ago
Ah, tabs are bad, because if you let people choose their own tab widths then it becomes impossible to align anything anymore. It makes it impossible to align anything which is != a tab width. Tabs aren't "designed" for indenting text: they're a hangover from typewriters, where they were literally metal tabs used for creating tables. Tabs don't carry semantics - that's the job of the language's syntax. Tabs as a concept should be confined to history IMHO, especially their implementation in modern word processors, where they just give you ad-hoc semantic-less tables. The tab key on the otherhand is great for indenting - in most sensible editors it will insert a configurable number of spaces. Perfect.
- Stratoscope 11y ago
  There is an easy solution to the alignment problem: don't align stuff. I haven't used column alignment in at least 20 years. I don't miss it at all, and I'll never go back to aligning things. Column alignment causes far too many problems. Once you give it up, any advantage of spaces over tabs disappears. Code written without alignment reads the same whatever you use for indentation, and it is even perfectly readable in a proportional font! I've written a few comments on HN about the problems with column alignment and the advantages of an alignment-free style. Here are a couple of previous discussions with specific examples: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10206860 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10206860 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9469713 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9469713
- masukomi 11y ago
  This is so very wrong.... > tabs are bad, because if you let people choose their own tab widths then it becomes impossible to align anything anymore. In what world is that true. If you indent your code with tabs, and I indent your code with tabs and I show my tabs as 4 chars wide and you show yours and 8 EVERYTHING IS STILL ALIGNED. It's just greater or lesser levels of indentation. You only have problems when you MIX tabs and spaces. Be consistent in your use and you won't have problems. > It makes it impossible to align anything which is != a tab width. Yes. So? Don't mix tabs and spaces. > Tabs aren't "designed" for indenting text: they're a hangover from typewriters, where they were literally metal tabs used for creating tables. What is a table? It's a tool FOR ALIGNING MULTIPLE COLUMNS OF TEXT... so yes, they ARE designed for indenting text. For a more fully thought out argument on why it's a dick move to use spaces as pretend tabs: http://weblog.masukomi.org/2010/07/26/why-you-should-never-indent-code-with-spaces/ http://weblog.masukomi.org/2010/07/26/why-you-should-never-i...
aubergene 11y ago
I agree, particularly with Elastic Tabstops http://nickgravgaard.com/elastic-tabstops/ http://nickgravgaard.com/elastic-tabstops/

DrJokepu 11y ago

Oh god, not that one again. I have no idea which one I'm using and quite frankly, I don't want to know either.

MPiccinato 11y ago

Out of curiosity does anyone know the default for Xcode? Looking at my settings it has indent using 4 spaces and I don't remember ever setting it.

int_handler 11y ago

Also, the examples on the page all seem to use 4 spaces instead of a tab.

Mayzie 11y ago

It is correct. Only fools presenting flawed arguments opine for spaces rather than tabs for indentation. That's right, indentation, NOT alignment. Spaces are for alignment, tabs for indentation. Not tabs for indentation and alignment, not spaces for indentation and alignment, but rather tabs for indentation and spaces for alignment.