5 ms·

Fledgling Languages List

62 points by gabordemooij 11y ago

speps 11y ago
Just taking one example (AngelScript), it's not really "fledgling" (not even sure the meaning of that, but it says "This site provides a list of programming languages which are just starting out in the world."). It's been around since 2005... Maybe it's just "a list of languages that I've just started to read about recently". Neat in the end, but should do with more information on how they were recognized as "fledgling". EDIT: found the criteria (doh!) http://fll.presidentbeef.com/criteria http://fll.presidentbeef.com/criteria and I searched "fledgling", AngelScript doesn't fit that category, it's a mature language used in lots of video games. If a language doesn't have a book written for it doesn't mean it's not "popular"...
- tel 11y ago
  On the flip side, Idris is listed depite - a wiki article, - a book, "Type-Driven Development with Idris" by the language author, and - a subreddit So I'm guessing it's just not a super well-maintained list.
  - nv-vn 11y ago
    To be fair, the book isn't complete yet and it hasn't nearly reached 1.0 yet. Some other listed languages are at similar stages of development, like Nim, Crystal, Ceylon, Elm, and Julia (in fact, a few of these seem closer to a production-ready product than Idris does). I assume most of these will be removed after an official 1.0 launch.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
    - InAnEmergency 11y ago
      Nimrod is listed as Nim, although the URL is still "nimrod".
  - commentzorro 11y ago
    I can't say about how the site is maintained (i.e. who makes the various decisions about each language) but it's updated quite regularly. I have changedetection.com monitoring the site and changes happen all the time. Here's the recent change list: https://www.changedetection.com/log/presidentbeef/fll/index_log.html https://www.changedetection.com/log/presidentbeef/fll/index_... Edit. Also, "This site exists to promote languages which are in development or have not yet reached a wider audience." I'd agree that none of the listed languages have reached a wide audience in (terms of usage anyway) regardless of the other criteria. But it's all relative and I do really like the site.
davelnewton 11y ago
Not sure how Factor is remotely "fledgling".
chc4 11y ago
In another vein, it's a lot of fun to look at random pages on Rosetta Code. Lots of esoteric languages and snippets of examples of code, all self-added by the community instead of added by one person like the OP's list. I never heard of this site before, for example, and I'm sure tons of other people never have, so it's probably missing quite a bit, while Rosetta Code is relatively well known. I took it upon myself to create an entry in Rosetta Code for Hoon, along with populating it with a couple examples, for example, but never saw this site to add it to before now.
zwetan 11y ago
Interesting list but "fledgling" is not only about language, it can be about where the language can run. When Node.js started, JavaScript was already popular but I'm pretty sure node could have been considered "fledgling".
- lmm 11y ago
  A list of fledgling languages is a very different thing from a list of fledgling language implementations. Haskell is 20+ years old but the Android port might count as "fledgling". Python is similarly mature but PyPy not so much. If you want to maintain a list of fledgling language implementations/ports that would be very cool. Probably a lot more work than just a list of languages though.
  - derefr 11y ago
    It's not just the implementation, though. The thing that differentiates Node from in-browser JS is something like a standard library—but really it's something we don't really have a term for in software architecture. It's the fact that in-browser JS has a DOM to work with, while Node has processes and files and other Unixisms to work with. Effectively, Node and JS-in-browsers are two sublanguages, each exposing the distinct set of abstractions their underlying platforms provide. This is distinct from the difference between, say, MRI Ruby and JRuby and IronRuby: those all fundamentally present the same (Unix) abstractions. The C, JVM, and CLR implementations of Ruby are effectively all composed of two parts: first, a shim on the underlying platform allowing it to be presented as having Unix platform abstractions; and then, a compiler/interpreter written in terms of those Unix platform abstractions. Instead of IronRuby exposing, say, a Window with a thread-pool as the basic actor type, you still get Processes with Threads; instead of IronRuby exposing NT Objects with ACLs, you still get Files with read/write/execute masks. Although this distinction is important, it's usually pretty trivial. There just aren't that many platform abstractions that existing languages really target, other than Unix, web browsers, and (rarely) SQL databases. There are some rare exceptions that have their own set of platform abstractions: Smalltalk, MOO games, Erlang, Lua, and Microsoft's Midori project, to name a few. This is why you don't tend to see a language directly "ported" to or from any of these runtimes; it'd end up a different sublanguage, and indeed often an entirely new language. (One could argue that Elixir, for example, is what happens when you "port" Ruby to Erlang's runtime; or that MoonScript is what happens when you "port" CoffeeScript to Lua's runtime.) Point being: I don't know whether a list of fledgling ports/implementations of languages would be all that interesting, where those ports/implementations retain the original language's platform abstractions. But I'd love to see a list of fledgling sublanguages that adapt an existing language to the platform abstractions of a new or different platform.
dbpokorny 11y ago
Orange! I remember that language. It is the language which produced what I consider to be the all time #1 hacker news comment: > Let me put your mind at ease: If you are serious, and if you attain any success, I solemnly promise you the Internet will string up your language, dismember it publicly, douse all the pieces in gasoline, light them on fire, and dance around the flames. Why is that actually something that ought to put your mind at ease? Well, it's inevitable anyhow, so you might as well go ahead, have some fun, and make some decisions about what Orange is going to positively be. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9784334 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9784334 it is mean but oh so vivid
- andrewflnr 11y ago
  I remember that thread now! Looks like the creator took the advice, too
jack9 11y ago
Quorum http://quorumlanguage.com/ http://quorumlanguage.com/
petke 11y ago
I'm probably cynical but I dont think the world need more languages. A clean and simple language turns ugly and complex given enough time. The programming world is fragmented enough as it is. I think we need more libraries and tools for the languages that already exist.

62 points by gabordemooij 11y ago

speps 11y ago

Just taking one example (AngelScript), it's not really "fledgling" (not even sure the meaning of that, but it says "This site provides a list of programming languages which are just starting out in the world."). It's been around since 2005... Maybe it's just "a list of languages that I've just started to read about recently". Neat in the end, but should do with more information on how they were recognized as "fledgling". EDIT: found the criteria (doh!) http://fll.presidentbeef.com/criteria http://fll.presidentbeef.com/criteria and I searched "fledgling", AngelScript doesn't fit that category, it's a mature language used in lots of video games. If a language doesn't have a book written for it doesn't mean it's not "popular"...

tel 11y ago
On the flip side, Idris is listed depite - a wiki article, - a book, "Type-Driven Development with Idris" by the language author, and - a subreddit So I'm guessing it's just not a super well-maintained list.
- nv-vn 11y ago
  To be fair, the book isn't complete yet and it hasn't nearly reached 1.0 yet. Some other listed languages are at similar stages of development, like Nim, Crystal, Ceylon, Elm, and Julia (in fact, a few of these seem closer to a production-ready product than Idris does). I assume most of these will be removed after an official 1.0 launch.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
  - InAnEmergency 11y ago
    Nimrod is listed as Nim, although the URL is still "nimrod".
- commentzorro 11y ago
  I can't say about how the site is maintained (i.e. who makes the various decisions about each language) but it's updated quite regularly. I have changedetection.com monitoring the site and changes happen all the time. Here's the recent change list: https://www.changedetection.com/log/presidentbeef/fll/index_log.html https://www.changedetection.com/log/presidentbeef/fll/index_... Edit. Also, "This site exists to promote languages which are in development or have not yet reached a wider audience." I'd agree that none of the listed languages have reached a wide audience in (terms of usage anyway) regardless of the other criteria. But it's all relative and I do really like the site.

davelnewton 11y ago

Not sure how Factor is remotely "fledgling".

chc4 11y ago

In another vein, it's a lot of fun to look at random pages on Rosetta Code. Lots of esoteric languages and snippets of examples of code, all self-added by the community instead of added by one person like the OP's list. I never heard of this site before, for example, and I'm sure tons of other people never have, so it's probably missing quite a bit, while Rosetta Code is relatively well known. I took it upon myself to create an entry in Rosetta Code for Hoon, along with populating it with a couple examples, for example, but never saw this site to add it to before now.

zwetan 11y ago

Interesting list but "fledgling" is not only about language, it can be about where the language can run. When Node.js started, JavaScript was already popular but I'm pretty sure node could have been considered "fledgling".

lmm 11y ago
A list of fledgling languages is a very different thing from a list of fledgling language implementations. Haskell is 20+ years old but the Android port might count as "fledgling". Python is similarly mature but PyPy not so much. If you want to maintain a list of fledgling language implementations/ports that would be very cool. Probably a lot more work than just a list of languages though.
- derefr 11y ago
  It's not just the implementation, though. The thing that differentiates Node from in-browser JS is something like a standard library—but really it's something we don't really have a term for in software architecture. It's the fact that in-browser JS has a DOM to work with, while Node has processes and files and other Unixisms to work with. Effectively, Node and JS-in-browsers are two sublanguages, each exposing the distinct set of abstractions their underlying platforms provide. This is distinct from the difference between, say, MRI Ruby and JRuby and IronRuby: those all fundamentally present the same (Unix) abstractions. The C, JVM, and CLR implementations of Ruby are effectively all composed of two parts: first, a shim on the underlying platform allowing it to be presented as having Unix platform abstractions; and then, a compiler/interpreter written in terms of those Unix platform abstractions. Instead of IronRuby exposing, say, a Window with a thread-pool as the basic actor type, you still get Processes with Threads; instead of IronRuby exposing NT Objects with ACLs, you still get Files with read/write/execute masks. Although this distinction is important, it's usually pretty trivial. There just aren't that many platform abstractions that existing languages really target, other than Unix, web browsers, and (rarely) SQL databases. There are some rare exceptions that have their own set of platform abstractions: Smalltalk, MOO games, Erlang, Lua, and Microsoft's Midori project, to name a few. This is why you don't tend to see a language directly "ported" to or from any of these runtimes; it'd end up a different sublanguage, and indeed often an entirely new language. (One could argue that Elixir, for example, is what happens when you "port" Ruby to Erlang's runtime; or that MoonScript is what happens when you "port" CoffeeScript to Lua's runtime.) Point being: I don't know whether a list of fledgling ports/implementations of languages would be all that interesting, where those ports/implementations retain the original language's platform abstractions. But I'd love to see a list of fledgling sublanguages that adapt an existing language to the platform abstractions of a new or different platform.

dbpokorny 11y ago

Orange! I remember that language. It is the language which produced what I consider to be the all time #1 hacker news comment: > Let me put your mind at ease: If you are serious, and if you attain any success, I solemnly promise you the Internet will string up your language, dismember it publicly, douse all the pieces in gasoline, light them on fire, and dance around the flames. Why is that actually something that ought to put your mind at ease? Well, it's inevitable anyhow, so you might as well go ahead, have some fun, and make some decisions about what Orange is going to positively be. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9784334 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9784334 it is mean but oh so vivid

andrewflnr 11y ago
I remember that thread now! Looks like the creator took the advice, too

jack9 11y ago

Quorum http://quorumlanguage.com/ http://quorumlanguage.com/

petke 11y ago

I'm probably cynical but I dont think the world need more languages. A clean and simple language turns ugly and complex given enough time. The programming world is fragmented enough as it is. I think we need more libraries and tools for the languages that already exist.