5 ms·

Is anyone else saddened that it takes a personal mortgage by a passionate professor and his team to figure this out? And that even after they proved it, a GoFun

by nemild 11y ago

Is anyone else saddened that it takes a personal mortgage by a passionate professor and his team to figure this out? And that even after they proved it, a GoFundMe campaign is the only way to recoup the funds? With the agencies involved dragging their feet, was there no other way to get someone else involved? Is there a whistleblower fund like the SEC has: https://www.sec.gov/whistleblower https://www.sec.gov/whistleblower that gives them a portion of the impact they had (10-30% for amounts over $1 MM in the SEC's case)?

awqrre 11y ago
What is also sad is that water purification should be nailed down by the US governments...
- zymhan 11y ago
  It is, the technology to cheaply filter water on a massive scale exists across the US and is employed by various levels of government very effectively. Only one of the "US governments" failed at purification - that of the state of Michigan.
  - awqrre 11y ago
    I bet if the same investigation happened at every public water plants across the country that they would not be the only ones to have major issues...
  - jcranmer 11y ago
    The problem with water treatment is that maintenance is quite expensive. The water company I worked for replaced all of its filters every other year and opened up as many fire hydrants as they could in the spring to try to flush the entire pipe system (while switching from chloramines to free chlorine during this period). Then again, said water system also has the benefit of operating a system which was constructed almost entirely in the late 20th century. Considering that maintenance ultimately boils down to looking at things that are currently working and throwing them away so they don't stop working, it's easy for a manager looking to cut costs to decide to try to avoid ("defer") maintenance and gamble that things don't break down.
- refurb 11y ago
  Providing quality water is a solved problem, but only if you can count on the humans involved. Hell, seven people died in Canada when the local purification plant was run by a couple incompetent brothers [1]. "The Walkerton Public Utilities Commission operators engaged in a host of improper operating practices, including failing to use adequate doses of chlorine, failing to monitor chlorine residuals daily, making false entries about residuals in daily operating records, and misstating the locations at which microbiological samples were taken." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walkerton_E._coli_outbreak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walkerton_E._coli_outbreak
  - tim333 11y ago
    Maybe in these days of the internet of things we need some things to check the water in case the humans screw up
    - awqrre 11y ago
      Definitely should do that at some random locations across counties everywhere in the country. My county has many ground water monitoring stations but I think that those only check for water levels (I have a well)... not sure what they do for county provided water but many times a year I hear about water quality problems from residents that have county water. The county then flush the system to remove sediments from the pipes and I hear no complaints for a few months (on the city's Facebook page)...
    - yousifa 11y ago
      We do that at AquaCloud
      - awqrre 11y ago
        Can it detect lead indirectly? (from the PDF on your website , it doesn't appear to detect it directly)
        yousifa 11y ago
ck2 11y ago
The car factories in the area already knew the water was bad and could no longer use it for production lines because it was damaging paint. It took this level of scientific study to confront the state government "deniers" that there was anything wrong, people had been showing them for months.
- nemild 11y ago
  Why don't the car factories give some money to Virginia Tech then (or have commissioned the rigorous study themselves)? I'm assuming $150k is not a huge amount compared to shutting down an entire process at your factory (and especially if it financially impacts several businesses, not just one)?
  - ck2 11y ago
    Or along those lines, give them less of a massive write-off in taxes and allocate those taxes to properly funded daily testing of water around the city. Or just use their taxes to keep paying for the Detroit water in the first place. You think factories are in and around Flint because of the scenery? Or because of huge tax discounts?
    - nemild 11y ago
      I'm all for that - but in this case the government was asleep at the wheel. If that happens, is one of the only ways to (empirically) fight back the kindness of a single professor? To keep this constructive, here are other options to have blown the whistle sooner (assuming the state and federal govts are not a willing party): - Area residents call in the press with pictures, that forces the govt to change (which it didn't seem worked well here, even with those pictures) - Find a single state representative (or several) who takes up the cause; get them to get some cash for an independent analysis - A few area businesses get together when they start seeing financial issues from the water and fund an expert to come in (or area residents crowdfund for an expert with a GoFundMe-type campaign) - Lawyers sensing a payday invest in an expert - Call up the local university (or in this case, get the interest of a far off uni) I'm hardly going to do a good brainstorm in an HN thread (especially without more reflection), but you get the idea. Assume the state and federal governments (executive branch) are not a willing party, what are a bunch of things you do to get an independent expert to run an empirically sound analysis sooner? (and without taking out a personal mortgage)
sremani 11y ago
This is the GoFundMe page, https://www.gofundme.com/flintstudyvt https://www.gofundme.com/flintstudyvt
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- bartvk 11y ago
  Thanks. I chipped in a tenner and I'm from Europe. But the passion that this team shows, is awe-inspiring.
jberryman 11y ago
I think it's quite in the spirit of this whole debacle of underfunded and broken public institutions.

by nemild 11y ago

awqrre 11y ago

What is also sad is that water purification should be nailed down by the US governments...

zymhan 11y ago
It is, the technology to cheaply filter water on a massive scale exists across the US and is employed by various levels of government very effectively. Only one of the "US governments" failed at purification - that of the state of Michigan.
- awqrre 11y ago
  I bet if the same investigation happened at every public water plants across the country that they would not be the only ones to have major issues...
- jcranmer 11y ago
  The problem with water treatment is that maintenance is quite expensive. The water company I worked for replaced all of its filters every other year and opened up as many fire hydrants as they could in the spring to try to flush the entire pipe system (while switching from chloramines to free chlorine during this period). Then again, said water system also has the benefit of operating a system which was constructed almost entirely in the late 20th century. Considering that maintenance ultimately boils down to looking at things that are currently working and throwing them away so they don't stop working, it's easy for a manager looking to cut costs to decide to try to avoid ("defer") maintenance and gamble that things don't break down.
refurb 11y ago
Providing quality water is a solved problem, but only if you can count on the humans involved. Hell, seven people died in Canada when the local purification plant was run by a couple incompetent brothers [1]. "The Walkerton Public Utilities Commission operators engaged in a host of improper operating practices, including failing to use adequate doses of chlorine, failing to monitor chlorine residuals daily, making false entries about residuals in daily operating records, and misstating the locations at which microbiological samples were taken." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walkerton_E._coli_outbreak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walkerton_E._coli_outbreak
- tim333 11y ago
  Maybe in these days of the internet of things we need some things to check the water in case the humans screw up
  - awqrre 11y ago
    Definitely should do that at some random locations across counties everywhere in the country. My county has many ground water monitoring stations but I think that those only check for water levels (I have a well)... not sure what they do for county provided water but many times a year I hear about water quality problems from residents that have county water. The county then flush the system to remove sediments from the pipes and I hear no complaints for a few months (on the city's Facebook page)...
  - yousifa 11y ago
    We do that at AquaCloud
    - awqrre 11y ago
      Can it detect lead indirectly? (from the PDF on your website , it doesn't appear to detect it directly)
      - yousifa 11y ago

ck2 11y ago

The car factories in the area already knew the water was bad and could no longer use it for production lines because it was damaging paint. It took this level of scientific study to confront the state government "deniers" that there was anything wrong, people had been showing them for months.

nemild 11y ago
Why don't the car factories give some money to Virginia Tech then (or have commissioned the rigorous study themselves)? I'm assuming $150k is not a huge amount compared to shutting down an entire process at your factory (and especially if it financially impacts several businesses, not just one)?
- ck2 11y ago
  Or along those lines, give them less of a massive write-off in taxes and allocate those taxes to properly funded daily testing of water around the city. Or just use their taxes to keep paying for the Detroit water in the first place. You think factories are in and around Flint because of the scenery? Or because of huge tax discounts?
  - nemild 11y ago
    I'm all for that - but in this case the government was asleep at the wheel. If that happens, is one of the only ways to (empirically) fight back the kindness of a single professor? To keep this constructive, here are other options to have blown the whistle sooner (assuming the state and federal govts are not a willing party): - Area residents call in the press with pictures, that forces the govt to change (which it didn't seem worked well here, even with those pictures) - Find a single state representative (or several) who takes up the cause; get them to get some cash for an independent analysis - A few area businesses get together when they start seeing financial issues from the water and fund an expert to come in (or area residents crowdfund for an expert with a GoFundMe-type campaign) - Lawyers sensing a payday invest in an expert - Call up the local university (or in this case, get the interest of a far off uni) I'm hardly going to do a good brainstorm in an HN thread (especially without more reflection), but you get the idea. Assume the state and federal governments (executive branch) are not a willing party, what are a bunch of things you do to get an independent expert to run an empirically sound analysis sooner? (and without taking out a personal mortgage)

sremani 11y ago

This is the GoFundMe page, https://www.gofundme.com/flintstudyvt https://www.gofundme.com/flintstudyvt

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
bartvk 11y ago
Thanks. I chipped in a tenner and I'm from Europe. But the passion that this team shows, is awe-inspiring.

jberryman 11y ago

I think it's quite in the spirit of this whole debacle of underfunded and broken public institutions.