7 ms·

Stockholm first city to get mobile 5G network in 2018

58 points by imartin2k 11y ago

towb 11y ago
So, what is 5G anyway?
- the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
  Unspecified right now but lower latency and better support for more devices connected without degrading performance. LTE currently needs to slice down the 300Mbit it can achieve per sector by the number of connected devices. It can chose though how it allocates hat bandwidth on a per device basis.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- nabla9 11y ago
  5G requirements: - 1-10Gbps connections to end points in the field (i.e. not theoretical maximum) - 1 millisecond end-to-end round trip delay (latency) - 1000x bandwidth per unit area - 10-100x number of connected devices - (Perception of) 99.999% availability - (Perception of) 100% coverage - 90% reduction in network energy usage - Up to ten year battery life for low power, machine-type devices http://networks.nokia.com/news-events/insight-newsletter/articles/5g-is-moving-beyond-the-hype http://networks.nokia.com/news-events/insight-newsletter/art... Many new industries like automation outside factories (self driving cars, drones, smart grids, etc.) want more reliability, flexible adaption, lower latency and more coverage, everyone wants more bandwidth.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - swalsh 11y ago
    Do you know how they're accomplishing higher bandwidth? Is it adding more frequencies (such as bands used by the navy when there's no ships around?) or is it more complex than that?
    - the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
      I am not sure but the way from UMTS to LTE was purely technical. In UMTS the sender just spams out the signal for all receivers and you need to retransmit more because the error correction keeps kicking in. So the more devices in a cell the higher the latency, variance and lower the bandwidths. With LTE each device is measured by the tower about how well it can receive data and the tower time slices specifically for this device. So when the tower sends there, it does not send to any other device. (That's my understanding of the situation)
    - nabla9 11y ago
      massive MIMO, beanforming, more frequencies, fast switching between channels.
reustle 11y ago
I wonder if, like 4G, it actually won't be 5G [1] [1] 2010 http://gizmodo.com/5680755/the-dirty-secret-of-todays-4g-its-not-4g http://gizmodo.com/5680755/the-dirty-secret-of-todays-4g-its...
- ksec 11y ago
  This time they have a clear path so that likely will not happen again. LTE as 4G, The original 4G is now LTE Advances which now some network call it 4.5G Many of the 5G tech are coming out in incremental releases. So 3GPP Rel 15 will be 5G Phase 1, and Rel 16 will be 5G Phase 2. There will be LTE Advance Pro, which provides all the features up to Rel 14. As a matter of fact most of the latency reduction will be done in Rel 14, it is likely they start calling Rel 14 as 5G and continue to evolve on it. And to be honest ( apart from T-Mobile I think ), LTE really do deserve the name 4G. It brings much faster access, and more importantly lower latency that feels so much faster when browsing the web. As most user will properly not notice a difference between 300Mbps and 600Mbps. Let alone 1Gbps. So really the biggest benefits of these new release are increase in Capacity of Mobile Network. Most Network operator today are facing the same problem.
  - the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
    > LTE really do deserve the name 4G. Indeed. I live in a rural area and until recently I was too far away to get reasonable broadband, so I switched to LTE exclusively and no that there is fiber I have no reason to downgrade yet since I'm quite alone in the cell. Stable and fast.
  - gozur88 11y ago
    >As most user will properly not notice a difference between 300Mbps and 600Mbps. Let alone 1Gbps. So really the biggest benefits of these new release are increase in Capacity of Mobile Network. Do you know if there's a latency difference? LTE is has pretty low latency compared to earlier standards, but compared to wired internet it's still garbage.
    - ksec 11y ago
mafribe 11y ago
As far as I understand, 5G will require IPv6 support. That will drive IPv6 adoption.
- yeukhon 11y ago
  Even so, it doesn't mean web servers have to adopt IPv6 IPs. They can stay with IPv4 addresses as they do now.
  - mafribe 11y ago
    Sure, but as more and more phones go 5G, they may see their traffic drop.
  - p1mrx 11y ago
    ISPs will continue to support IPv4 until the costs outweigh the benefits, but IPv4-only web servers will see a gradual degradation in the quality of IP reputation, geo data, and possibly performance, as more users get NATed behind fewer addresses.
- the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
  They said the same about 4G and it did not happen.
  - mafribe 11y ago
    Does 4G mandate IPv6? I do think v6 adoption is now happening.
  - ersii 11y ago
    There are plenty of operators handing out dual IPv6+IPv4-adresses on LTE(4G) though! One of them is Tele2 in Sweden. TeliaSonera... doesn't offer that yet though..
    - the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
      I know. But it was supposed to mandate ipv6.
johansch 11y ago
Even the PR people from Telia and Ericsson (who are partnering to do this again, just like how they launched "the world's first 4G network in Stockholm in 2009") say (when interviewed by Swedish media) that this will be similar to the 4G preview/test. So what we can expect to see is city-wide coverage and a few thousand heavily subsidised end-user 5g terminals (probably USB 3.0 modems at first - at the 4G preview in 2009 they came from Huawei.) Making Stockholm/Tallinn-wide coverage a reality with that few users isn't super costly. Ericsson are happy because they get a realistic field test of usage, handover between base stations etc. They also get a credible proof of concept for further sales. Telia are happy because they get to project the apparance that they are ahead of the curve to their customer base. Telia and Ericsson have had this symbiosis thing going on for 100+ years now, btw. It seems to be working quite well for them both.
zanny 11y ago
I still want to see the potential of 4G realized. In most places its illogical to want to run fiber to the home to everyones house when you could just setup cell towers at the 20-40mb rates 4G usually gets and provide everyone with Internet that way. For most people, their phone really should be their router and gateway. Getting new-classification broadband to everyone would be so incredibly cheap if all we had to do was give everyone 4G modems and let them use unlimited 40mb/s data over them, but its blatantly apparent the spectrum mafia is holding technology back - we need vastly more spectrum liberated for public consumption, especially that which is corporate controlled today, so that we can better provide the world with wireless connectivity. Right now the allocated spectrum is like a tap barely open where if regulation would let us we could get so much more bandwidth out of if archaic ideas about the private ownership of mathematical patterns would go away.
- nitrogen 11y ago
  What kind of latency would people get on 4G vs. fiber? People don't know what to call it, but they do care about lag in voice/video calls and games.
  - zanny 11y ago
    Having used 4g for calls all the time, that has never been a problem. Conferencing is fairly latency tolerant. Games are always the exception, but I'm not sure how many would truly value low latency in games over the aggregate savings of millions not having to supply and support wired uplinks in the last mile. But I'm not really talking about places you already get 20+ mbps by wire - I'm talking about places like my grandmothers town in rural PA where 4G coverage and speed can be up to 10x faster than the low rate dsl / cable options available to her ranging from 1.5 to 10 mbit. Whenever I visit sprint 4g is 50mb/s and her best landline option is 10mbit residential cable from the township.
    - nitrogen 11y ago
      Conferencing is fairly latency tolerant. It's easy to say this until you've experienced six remote people all trying to say something and, because of the latency, nobody knows who actually started first :). Also when you haven't tried something like Mumble. http://wiki.mumble.info/wiki/Main_Page http://wiki.mumble.info/wiki/Main_Page

58 points by imartin2k 11y ago

towb 11y ago

So, what is 5G anyway?

the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
Unspecified right now but lower latency and better support for more devices connected without degrading performance. LTE currently needs to slice down the 300Mbit it can achieve per sector by the number of connected devices. It can chose though how it allocates hat bandwidth on a per device basis.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
nabla9 11y ago
5G requirements: - 1-10Gbps connections to end points in the field (i.e. not theoretical maximum) - 1 millisecond end-to-end round trip delay (latency) - 1000x bandwidth per unit area - 10-100x number of connected devices - (Perception of) 99.999% availability - (Perception of) 100% coverage - 90% reduction in network energy usage - Up to ten year battery life for low power, machine-type devices http://networks.nokia.com/news-events/insight-newsletter/articles/5g-is-moving-beyond-the-hype http://networks.nokia.com/news-events/insight-newsletter/art... Many new industries like automation outside factories (self driving cars, drones, smart grids, etc.) want more reliability, flexible adaption, lower latency and more coverage, everyone wants more bandwidth.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- swalsh 11y ago
  Do you know how they're accomplishing higher bandwidth? Is it adding more frequencies (such as bands used by the navy when there's no ships around?) or is it more complex than that?
  - the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
    I am not sure but the way from UMTS to LTE was purely technical. In UMTS the sender just spams out the signal for all receivers and you need to retransmit more because the error correction keeps kicking in. So the more devices in a cell the higher the latency, variance and lower the bandwidths. With LTE each device is measured by the tower about how well it can receive data and the tower time slices specifically for this device. So when the tower sends there, it does not send to any other device. (That's my understanding of the situation)
  - nabla9 11y ago
    massive MIMO, beanforming, more frequencies, fast switching between channels.

reustle 11y ago

I wonder if, like 4G, it actually won't be 5G [1] [1] 2010 http://gizmodo.com/5680755/the-dirty-secret-of-todays-4g-its-not-4g http://gizmodo.com/5680755/the-dirty-secret-of-todays-4g-its...

ksec 11y ago
This time they have a clear path so that likely will not happen again. LTE as 4G, The original 4G is now LTE Advances which now some network call it 4.5G Many of the 5G tech are coming out in incremental releases. So 3GPP Rel 15 will be 5G Phase 1, and Rel 16 will be 5G Phase 2. There will be LTE Advance Pro, which provides all the features up to Rel 14. As a matter of fact most of the latency reduction will be done in Rel 14, it is likely they start calling Rel 14 as 5G and continue to evolve on it. And to be honest ( apart from T-Mobile I think ), LTE really do deserve the name 4G. It brings much faster access, and more importantly lower latency that feels so much faster when browsing the web. As most user will properly not notice a difference between 300Mbps and 600Mbps. Let alone 1Gbps. So really the biggest benefits of these new release are increase in Capacity of Mobile Network. Most Network operator today are facing the same problem.
- the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
  > LTE really do deserve the name 4G. Indeed. I live in a rural area and until recently I was too far away to get reasonable broadband, so I switched to LTE exclusively and no that there is fiber I have no reason to downgrade yet since I'm quite alone in the cell. Stable and fast.
- gozur88 11y ago
  >As most user will properly not notice a difference between 300Mbps and 600Mbps. Let alone 1Gbps. So really the biggest benefits of these new release are increase in Capacity of Mobile Network. Do you know if there's a latency difference? LTE is has pretty low latency compared to earlier standards, but compared to wired internet it's still garbage.
  - ksec 11y ago

mafribe 11y ago

As far as I understand, 5G will require IPv6 support. That will drive IPv6 adoption.

yeukhon 11y ago
Even so, it doesn't mean web servers have to adopt IPv6 IPs. They can stay with IPv4 addresses as they do now.
- mafribe 11y ago
  Sure, but as more and more phones go 5G, they may see their traffic drop.
- p1mrx 11y ago
  ISPs will continue to support IPv4 until the costs outweigh the benefits, but IPv4-only web servers will see a gradual degradation in the quality of IP reputation, geo data, and possibly performance, as more users get NATed behind fewer addresses.
the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
They said the same about 4G and it did not happen.
- mafribe 11y ago
  Does 4G mandate IPv6? I do think v6 adoption is now happening.
- ersii 11y ago
  There are plenty of operators handing out dual IPv6+IPv4-adresses on LTE(4G) though! One of them is Tele2 in Sweden. TeliaSonera... doesn't offer that yet though..
  - the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
    I know. But it was supposed to mandate ipv6.

johansch 11y ago

Even the PR people from Telia and Ericsson (who are partnering to do this again, just like how they launched "the world's first 4G network in Stockholm in 2009") say (when interviewed by Swedish media) that this will be similar to the 4G preview/test. So what we can expect to see is city-wide coverage and a few thousand heavily subsidised end-user 5g terminals (probably USB 3.0 modems at first - at the 4G preview in 2009 they came from Huawei.) Making Stockholm/Tallinn-wide coverage a reality with that few users isn't super costly. Ericsson are happy because they get a realistic field test of usage, handover between base stations etc. They also get a credible proof of concept for further sales. Telia are happy because they get to project the apparance that they are ahead of the curve to their customer base. Telia and Ericsson have had this symbiosis thing going on for 100+ years now, btw. It seems to be working quite well for them both.

zanny 11y ago

I still want to see the potential of 4G realized. In most places its illogical to want to run fiber to the home to everyones house when you could just setup cell towers at the 20-40mb rates 4G usually gets and provide everyone with Internet that way. For most people, their phone really should be their router and gateway. Getting new-classification broadband to everyone would be so incredibly cheap if all we had to do was give everyone 4G modems and let them use unlimited 40mb/s data over them, but its blatantly apparent the spectrum mafia is holding technology back - we need vastly more spectrum liberated for public consumption, especially that which is corporate controlled today, so that we can better provide the world with wireless connectivity. Right now the allocated spectrum is like a tap barely open where if regulation would let us we could get so much more bandwidth out of if archaic ideas about the private ownership of mathematical patterns would go away.

nitrogen 11y ago
What kind of latency would people get on 4G vs. fiber? People don't know what to call it, but they do care about lag in voice/video calls and games.
- zanny 11y ago
  Having used 4g for calls all the time, that has never been a problem. Conferencing is fairly latency tolerant. Games are always the exception, but I'm not sure how many would truly value low latency in games over the aggregate savings of millions not having to supply and support wired uplinks in the last mile. But I'm not really talking about places you already get 20+ mbps by wire - I'm talking about places like my grandmothers town in rural PA where 4G coverage and speed can be up to 10x faster than the low rate dsl / cable options available to her ranging from 1.5 to 10 mbit. Whenever I visit sprint 4g is 50mb/s and her best landline option is 10mbit residential cable from the township.
  - nitrogen 11y ago
    Conferencing is fairly latency tolerant. It's easy to say this until you've experienced six remote people all trying to say something and, because of the latency, nobody knows who actually started first :). Also when you haven't tried something like Mumble. http://wiki.mumble.info/wiki/Main_Page http://wiki.mumble.info/wiki/Main_Page