4 ms·

Joint Pain, from the Gut (2015)

44 points by bootload 11y ago

jmadsen 11y ago
There was a fascinating RadioLab episode on similar not too long ago. There are indications, too, that these microbes may affect/control things like depression, bipolar, etc. We may see some amazing medical breakthroughs in this area in the coming years
oniMaker 11y ago
"Finnish researchers found that a vegan diet changed the gut microbiome, and that this change was linked to an improvement in arthritis symptoms." I had a suspicion when I started reading this article that the simplest solution would be to cut meat out of the diet. It's astounding how many problems are solved medically, environmentally, economically, and of course ethically if we simply stop consuming meat, or at least stop consuming it at such extreme levels!
- mikro2nd 11y ago
  The question I wonder about -- and I speak as a non meat-eater -- is whether it is, indeed, the meat itself that is at fault, or the payload of antibiotics, growth hormones, colourants, preservatives, etc. that are the product of contemporary factory-style production of meat.
  - dpatrick86 11y ago
    Those things are no doubt playing a huge role, but as a person increases their consumption of meat they may also be crowding out fiber. Fiber is substrate for the microbiome. Listen to what Dr. Justin Sonnenburg out of the department of microbiology & immunology at Stanford has to say about the importance of fiber... https://youtu.be/gOZcbNw7sng?t=6m19s https://youtu.be/gOZcbNw7sng?t=6m19s
  - junto 11y ago
    I would go as far as to say that the alterations we are making to plants, might also have long term unforeseen negative effects, that we are yet to appreciate. Sometimes I think the fact that we can "hack" nature, doesn't mean we should.
- wodenokoto 11y ago
  Actually many people find it very difficult to live on a vegan diet, simply because it is difficult to get all nourishment.
  - oniMaker 11y ago
    Can you back that up with any data? There are many sources which demonstrate that it's fairly simple to get all the nutrients you need by only eating plants. My own experience (and that of the vegans I know) also reflects this.
junto 11y ago
Helicobacter pylori is blamed for increasing the risk of stomach cancer. My gastroenterologist treated me to get rid of it for this reason. That being said, since 50% of the world's population have this in their gut, I'm starting to get the feeling that modern medicine doesn't have the entire picture with relation to the microbiome and their are making drastic decisions based on half that story. It seems increasingly likely that the delicate balance of bacteria inside the gut, or more specifically its imbalance, is closely linked to a variety of autoimmune diseases. The long term consequences of antibiotics, highly processed foods and sugars, alongside the corn phenomenon is not understood and could well be changing is for the worse.
- mkskm 11y ago
  The man who first made this connection with H. Pylori, Martin J. Blaser, thinks the same thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_J._Blaser#Research https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_J._Blaser#Research He has a book on it too, “Missing Microbes”. It’s sad how much dogma there is in the medical community.
  - junto 11y ago
    Interesting. Thanks for sharing that.
- tim333 11y ago
  >doesn't have the entire picture I think it's pretty early days still in figuring what's going on. Until fairly recently they only had a pretty hazy guess what bacteria were in you. Apparently less than 1% of gut bacteria can be cultured outside the body. Things are changing recently with cheap gene sequencing and big data analytics. I think they basically take a sample, mush it up, run it through a gene sequencer and use computer algorithms try to make some sort of sense of the data. The Human Microbiome Project (2008-2013) calculated there are more than 10,000 microbial species in humans. Quite a lot to look at.
discardorama 11y ago
FTA: "In another study published in October, Scher found that patients with psoriatic arthritis, another kind of autoimmune joint disease, had significantly lower levels of other types of intestinal bacteria." But what if the bacteria were destroyed by the body first, after being targeted by the body's own immune defenses?
vikingcaffiene 11y ago
I found this article very interesting. I suffer from RA and I can tell you that it sucks. It attacks more than just your joints. Things like minor coughs and colds will hang on for forever and make you vulnerable as you age. Scary stuff. Its good to know that there are possible treatments on the horizon.

44 points by bootload 11y ago

There was a fascinating RadioLab episode on similar not too long ago. There are indications, too, that these microbes may affect/control things like depression, bipolar, etc. We may see some amazing medical breakthroughs in this area in the coming years

oniMaker 11y ago

"Finnish researchers found that a vegan diet changed the gut microbiome, and that this change was linked to an improvement in arthritis symptoms." I had a suspicion when I started reading this article that the simplest solution would be to cut meat out of the diet. It's astounding how many problems are solved medically, environmentally, economically, and of course ethically if we simply stop consuming meat, or at least stop consuming it at such extreme levels!

mikro2nd 11y ago
The question I wonder about -- and I speak as a non meat-eater -- is whether it is, indeed, the meat itself that is at fault, or the payload of antibiotics, growth hormones, colourants, preservatives, etc. that are the product of contemporary factory-style production of meat.
- dpatrick86 11y ago
  Those things are no doubt playing a huge role, but as a person increases their consumption of meat they may also be crowding out fiber. Fiber is substrate for the microbiome. Listen to what Dr. Justin Sonnenburg out of the department of microbiology & immunology at Stanford has to say about the importance of fiber... https://youtu.be/gOZcbNw7sng?t=6m19s https://youtu.be/gOZcbNw7sng?t=6m19s
- junto 11y ago
  I would go as far as to say that the alterations we are making to plants, might also have long term unforeseen negative effects, that we are yet to appreciate. Sometimes I think the fact that we can "hack" nature, doesn't mean we should.
wodenokoto 11y ago
Actually many people find it very difficult to live on a vegan diet, simply because it is difficult to get all nourishment.
- oniMaker 11y ago
  Can you back that up with any data? There are many sources which demonstrate that it's fairly simple to get all the nutrients you need by only eating plants. My own experience (and that of the vegans I know) also reflects this.

junto 11y ago

Helicobacter pylori is blamed for increasing the risk of stomach cancer. My gastroenterologist treated me to get rid of it for this reason. That being said, since 50% of the world's population have this in their gut, I'm starting to get the feeling that modern medicine doesn't have the entire picture with relation to the microbiome and their are making drastic decisions based on half that story. It seems increasingly likely that the delicate balance of bacteria inside the gut, or more specifically its imbalance, is closely linked to a variety of autoimmune diseases. The long term consequences of antibiotics, highly processed foods and sugars, alongside the corn phenomenon is not understood and could well be changing is for the worse.

mkskm 11y ago
The man who first made this connection with H. Pylori, Martin J. Blaser, thinks the same thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_J._Blaser#Research https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_J._Blaser#Research He has a book on it too, “Missing Microbes”. It’s sad how much dogma there is in the medical community.
- junto 11y ago
  Interesting. Thanks for sharing that.
tim333 11y ago
>doesn't have the entire picture I think it's pretty early days still in figuring what's going on. Until fairly recently they only had a pretty hazy guess what bacteria were in you. Apparently less than 1% of gut bacteria can be cultured outside the body. Things are changing recently with cheap gene sequencing and big data analytics. I think they basically take a sample, mush it up, run it through a gene sequencer and use computer algorithms try to make some sort of sense of the data. The Human Microbiome Project (2008-2013) calculated there are more than 10,000 microbial species in humans. Quite a lot to look at.

discardorama 11y ago

FTA: "In another study published in October, Scher found that patients with psoriatic arthritis, another kind of autoimmune joint disease, had significantly lower levels of other types of intestinal bacteria." But what if the bacteria were destroyed by the body first, after being targeted by the body's own immune defenses?

vikingcaffiene 11y ago

I found this article very interesting. I suffer from RA and I can tell you that it sucks. It attacks more than just your joints. Things like minor coughs and colds will hang on for forever and make you vulnerable as you age. Scary stuff. Its good to know that there are possible treatments on the horizon.