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---> It's bullshit that police are coming to the door and dragging them outside while trying to determine if a search warrant is in order. I think this is the

---> It's bullshit that police are coming to the door and dragging them outside while trying to determine if a search warrant is in order. I think this is the biggest issue! Their rights where violated.

ghshephard 11y ago
What rights are you referring to? The police seem to have done everything correctly. These were individuals who were being detained pursuant to an investigation of an ongoing crime. The police did not search the inside of the house without a warrant - though, it's unclear why not - if they had strong belief that there was a crime in progress, they had every legal right to do so. I guess the only thing in question is whether "missing child" was precise enough to be upgraded to "crime" in this jurisdiction. I think that, given the evidence, the police did everything correctly; being detained pursuant to an investigation isn't a great inconvenience (though, some accommodation should be made to allow people to use washroom facilities if investigation is extensive - just obviously not in the house under investigation.)
- asciimo 11y ago
  Software that puts a blinking dot on a map should not be considered probable cause.
  - ghshephard 11y ago
    The findmyfriends feature on my iPhone has been 100% accurate in identifying where my friends are. If I had a child who went missing, and findmyfriends showed that they were in a house, I would absolutely hope that the police would go to the house and rescue my child. I would also hope that the police would have enough sense to prevent any occupants from the house from going into the house and potentially destroying/hiding any evidence, and/or, powering down the iPhone. As it was, I think the police showed restraint by not going into the house until they had a warrant.
    - PhantomGremlin 11y ago
      The findmyfriends feature on my iPhone has been 100% accurate in identifying where my friends are My wife and I use Find My Friends quite often to keep track of our children. I've used it for years, so I'm quite familiar with it. Our experience is quite the opposite of "100% accurate". I provided more detail in this other post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10950107 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10950107 Edit: just looked up the USA version of "probable cause" here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause#United_States In my opinion Find My Friends does not meet the standard of probable cause as defined by that Wikipedia article. I'd characterize its behavior be somewhere in between "reasonable suspicion" and "probable cause". I've seen the location be wrong and stay wrong for 1/2 hour or more. And I don't mean it can't find a location, I mean that it is repeatedly reporting the wrong location ("now") for an extended period of time. Oh, and BTW following that Wiki link for "reasonable suspicion" says that it is sufficient for obtaining a warrant. IMO Find My Friends does meet that standard, at least as I understand it by a quick reading of Wiki.
      - Houshalter 11y ago
        What percent of the time is the location totally wrong? Greater than 50% of the time? If not then it's totally justified.
        cortesoft 11y ago
        Wait... you are saying you are willing to have a 49% chance that the police hold you in custody and search your house when you are totally innocent?!? Think about that.... there are LOTS of stolen phones and tablets, and if the police end up searching the wrong house nearly HALF the time that would be hundreds of innocent people. Fuck that I am SO not willing to live in a society where that happens.
        Houshalter 11y ago
        It was a missing girl, not a random stolen phone. Yes I'd absolutely be willing to risk inconveniencing one person to save a kidnapped girl. The 50% number was made up anyway, it's likely higher than that. GPS especially is pretty accurate, and these tracking systems probably use it when available. For a single stolen phone, probably not. Though you can still go to their house and then call the phone right as they answer the door. If you hear ringing then that's probable cause.
  - ytpete 11y ago
    "Probable cause" isn't even enough - all that does is let police go get a warrant. To enter a house without needing a warrant (without the resident's permission), the situation needs to be much more compelling than just probable cause. For example, if police are in the middle of pursuing someone and they see that person flee into a house, then they can enter it immediately. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exigent_circumstance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exigent_circumstance

ghshephard 11y ago

What rights are you referring to? The police seem to have done everything correctly. These were individuals who were being detained pursuant to an investigation of an ongoing crime. The police did not search the inside of the house without a warrant - though, it's unclear why not - if they had strong belief that there was a crime in progress, they had every legal right to do so. I guess the only thing in question is whether "missing child" was precise enough to be upgraded to "crime" in this jurisdiction. I think that, given the evidence, the police did everything correctly; being detained pursuant to an investigation isn't a great inconvenience (though, some accommodation should be made to allow people to use washroom facilities if investigation is extensive - just obviously not in the house under investigation.)

asciimo 11y ago
Software that puts a blinking dot on a map should not be considered probable cause.
- ghshephard 11y ago
  The findmyfriends feature on my iPhone has been 100% accurate in identifying where my friends are. If I had a child who went missing, and findmyfriends showed that they were in a house, I would absolutely hope that the police would go to the house and rescue my child. I would also hope that the police would have enough sense to prevent any occupants from the house from going into the house and potentially destroying/hiding any evidence, and/or, powering down the iPhone. As it was, I think the police showed restraint by not going into the house until they had a warrant.
  - PhantomGremlin 11y ago
    The findmyfriends feature on my iPhone has been 100% accurate in identifying where my friends are My wife and I use Find My Friends quite often to keep track of our children. I've used it for years, so I'm quite familiar with it. Our experience is quite the opposite of "100% accurate". I provided more detail in this other post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10950107 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10950107 Edit: just looked up the USA version of "probable cause" here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause#United_States In my opinion Find My Friends does not meet the standard of probable cause as defined by that Wikipedia article. I'd characterize its behavior be somewhere in between "reasonable suspicion" and "probable cause". I've seen the location be wrong and stay wrong for 1/2 hour or more. And I don't mean it can't find a location, I mean that it is repeatedly reporting the wrong location ("now") for an extended period of time. Oh, and BTW following that Wiki link for "reasonable suspicion" says that it is sufficient for obtaining a warrant. IMO Find My Friends does meet that standard, at least as I understand it by a quick reading of Wiki.
    - Houshalter 11y ago
      What percent of the time is the location totally wrong? Greater than 50% of the time? If not then it's totally justified.
      - cortesoft 11y ago
        Wait... you are saying you are willing to have a 49% chance that the police hold you in custody and search your house when you are totally innocent?!? Think about that.... there are LOTS of stolen phones and tablets, and if the police end up searching the wrong house nearly HALF the time that would be hundreds of innocent people. Fuck that I am SO not willing to live in a society where that happens.
        Houshalter 11y ago
        It was a missing girl, not a random stolen phone. Yes I'd absolutely be willing to risk inconveniencing one person to save a kidnapped girl. The 50% number was made up anyway, it's likely higher than that. GPS especially is pretty accurate, and these tracking systems probably use it when available. For a single stolen phone, probably not. Though you can still go to their house and then call the phone right as they answer the door. If you hear ringing then that's probable cause.
- ytpete 11y ago
  "Probable cause" isn't even enough - all that does is let police go get a warrant. To enter a house without needing a warrant (without the resident's permission), the situation needs to be much more compelling than just probable cause. For example, if police are in the middle of pursuing someone and they see that person flee into a house, then they can enter it immediately. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exigent_circumstance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exigent_circumstance