4 ms·

Civilized society depends on the cooperation of the law abiding populace. It's your civic duty to answer the door. It's a categorical imperative.

by harryh 11y ago

chad_strategic 11y ago
Obey at all costs!
- harryh 11y ago
  Avoid engaging with the issue at hand, but instead respond with a witty catch phrase!
  - mentat 11y ago
    So civil disobedience is a detriment to society?
    - harryh 11y ago
      Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn't. I'm not sure if I understand the point of your question.
manarth 11y ago
Civilized society depends on well-articulated laws that enable citizens to understand what is legal and what isn't, and allows Police to make use of force when it is appropriate, and prevents them from using force when it isn't. "The legitimacy of policing in the eyes of the public is based upon a general consensus of support that follows from transparency about their powers, their integrity in exercising those powers and their accountability for doing so." Edit: the principal is known as "Policing by consent", or the Peelian Principal [1], which is fairly common in the UK. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_Principles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_Principles
- harryh 11y ago
  That's true! And while I certainly agree that we have some problems in this area, I don't think they rise to the level of "don't ever answer the door if the police knock on it."
simoncion 11y ago
> It's your civic duty to answer the door. If and only if I can reasonably expect that the officer at the door is competent and adequately prepared to perform whatever task he is present to perform. If an officer comes to the door, then -effectively- locks me out of my own house for an hour+ because he failed to prepare for the possibility that I would refuse to permit a warrantless search of my property, then his incompetence has done me a serious injury. (Especially if I have an urgent need to urinate!) I am under absolutely no obligation to -as a courtesy- permit the police to waste my time with their incompetence. There is a system that every taxpayer pays for that provides at least a cursory double-check of an officer's search plan, and provides written certification that said plan has been approved. If an officer CBA to get such a certification and announce that he has one in his possession when he knocks at my door, I CBA to waste my time while he locks me out of my home for the time it takes him to get the certification that he should have gotten before he ever made the trip to my place.
beeboop 11y ago
You could also say civilized society depends on people providing reasonable aid to those who need it in emergency situations, but doing stuff like grabbing a child to prevent them from stepping in front of a car has lead to many child abduction charges. That isn't to say that I wouldn't help the child in that situation, but more to say there are situations where doing the right thing and not becoming a victim of the criminal justice system are not mutually exclusive. I will risk it to save a child, I will not risk it to open the door for a police officer whose sole intention is most likely to put me under his thumb.
- harryh 11y ago
  > grabbing a child to prevent them from stepping in front of a car has lead to many child abduction charges This is not true. I challenge you to find even a single instance of this happening. You appear to have an overly paranoid view of how the world operates that's likely based on very little actual interaction with law enforcement.
  - beeboop 11y ago
    I appreciate you calling me out on this - This is an anecdote I recall from over a decade ago but in Googling have no found any instances of it, so I will stop using it. A better example is breaking a car window to save a child locked in a hot car during the summer. To be fair, many places create good Samaritan laws to protect this sort of behavior. I agree I more alert than others on the topic, but I disagree that it's unfounded or paranoia. My beliefs may cause me some headache in the future but I will accept the high risk of headache over the small risk of severe injustice.

Civilized society depends on the cooperation of the law abiding populace. It's your civic duty to answer the door. It's a categorical imperative.

by harryh 11y ago

Civilized society depends on the cooperation of the law abiding populace. It's your civic duty to answer the door. It's a categorical imperative.

chad_strategic 11y ago

Obey at all costs!

harryh 11y ago
Avoid engaging with the issue at hand, but instead respond with a witty catch phrase!
- mentat 11y ago
  So civil disobedience is a detriment to society?
  - harryh 11y ago
    Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn't. I'm not sure if I understand the point of your question.

manarth 11y ago

Civilized society depends on well-articulated laws that enable citizens to understand what is legal and what isn't, and allows Police to make use of force when it is appropriate, and prevents them from using force when it isn't. "The legitimacy of policing in the eyes of the public is based upon a general consensus of support that follows from transparency about their powers, their integrity in exercising those powers and their accountability for doing so." Edit: the principal is known as "Policing by consent", or the Peelian Principal [1], which is fairly common in the UK. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_Principles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_Principles

harryh 11y ago
That's true! And while I certainly agree that we have some problems in this area, I don't think they rise to the level of "don't ever answer the door if the police knock on it."

simoncion 11y ago

> It's your civic duty to answer the door. If and only if I can reasonably expect that the officer at the door is competent and adequately prepared to perform whatever task he is present to perform. If an officer comes to the door, then -effectively- locks me out of my own house for an hour+ because he failed to prepare for the possibility that I would refuse to permit a warrantless search of my property, then his incompetence has done me a serious injury. (Especially if I have an urgent need to urinate!) I am under absolutely no obligation to -as a courtesy- permit the police to waste my time with their incompetence. There is a system that every taxpayer pays for that provides at least a cursory double-check of an officer's search plan, and provides written certification that said plan has been approved. If an officer CBA to get such a certification and announce that he has one in his possession when he knocks at my door, I CBA to waste my time while he locks me out of my home for the time it takes him to get the certification that he should have gotten before he ever made the trip to my place.

beeboop 11y ago

You could also say civilized society depends on people providing reasonable aid to those who need it in emergency situations, but doing stuff like grabbing a child to prevent them from stepping in front of a car has lead to many child abduction charges. That isn't to say that I wouldn't help the child in that situation, but more to say there are situations where doing the right thing and not becoming a victim of the criminal justice system are not mutually exclusive. I will risk it to save a child, I will not risk it to open the door for a police officer whose sole intention is most likely to put me under his thumb.

harryh 11y ago
> grabbing a child to prevent them from stepping in front of a car has lead to many child abduction charges This is not true. I challenge you to find even a single instance of this happening. You appear to have an overly paranoid view of how the world operates that's likely based on very little actual interaction with law enforcement.
- beeboop 11y ago
  I appreciate you calling me out on this - This is an anecdote I recall from over a decade ago but in Googling have no found any instances of it, so I will stop using it. A better example is breaking a car window to save a child locked in a hot car during the summer. To be fair, many places create good Samaritan laws to protect this sort of behavior. I agree I more alert than others on the topic, but I disagree that it's unfounded or paranoia. My beliefs may cause me some headache in the future but I will accept the high risk of headache over the small risk of severe injustice.