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> Is labor law all that clear on it? In the US, I think it's pretty clear that they are employees. https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Empl

> Is labor law all that clear on it? In the US, I think it's pretty clear that they are employees. https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Independent-Contractor-Self-Employed-or-Employee https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Emplo... "Does Uber control how the worker does his or her job?" - Yep. "Are the business aspects controlled by the payer?" - Yes, almost entirely. Even if they passed that, there's a special category for workers called "Statutory Employees", where some contractors are treated as employees even if they don't meet the normal check, which includes : "The service contract states that all services are to be provided by them personally" - Yep. Uber drivers can't accept a route for someone else, or vise-versa "The services are performed on a continuing basis for the same payer." - Yep. Uber drivers routinely drive for Uber. If the court respects the current rules as written, I don't see any way Uber can claim their employees are independent contractors.

graeme 11y ago
>The service contract states that all services are to be provided by them personally" - Yep. Uber drivers can't accept a route for someone else, or vise-versa "The services are performed on a continuing basis for the same payer. That section you quoted applies if someone is in one of the four categories for a statutory employee. It's to decide whether to withhold Medicare and social security taxes from those already determined to be statutory employees. The closes of the four categories is the first (beverage or food delivery driver), but it doesn't fit Uber. Whether or not someone can subcontract is generally an important factor in employee contractor, but it's not necessarily determinative. In a variety of personal service cases you wouldn't want your contractor switching with someone else. However, you wouldn't mind if they hired others to handle the non-personal aspects of their business. Similarly, Uber doesn't care if drivers subcontract out cleaning and maintenance of their cars and other non-driving aspects. Whereas they would care if "Steve" is in fact "John", because the service depends on reviews. That's similar to, say, Upwork, where if I hire "Steve" I want to know I'm talking to Steve. I don't care if he subcontracts, but at least part of the situation must be handled by him, because he's the one with reviews. https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Statutory-Employees https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Emplo... Meanwhile, you quoted a line from the financial services section, business control. But take a look at the factors actually listed in that section: https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Financial-Control https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Emplo... As far as I understand it, Uber drivers have significant investment (their car), they have unreimbursed expenses (car maintenance, food while driving, etc.), they can profit and lose money (if they are no good and their expenses exceed earnings), their services are available in the market (they can drive for others), and payment is per trip rather than an hourly salary (this last one is the most ambiguous, there are likely special considerations for the transport market). I really don't think it's as clear cut as you're making it out to be.
- graeme 11y ago
  p.s. I'm not saying I'm right. I'm hardly an expert on US labor law. If I'm missing a major factor, I'm interested to hear what might be decisive in a case like Uber's.

graeme 11y ago

>The service contract states that all services are to be provided by them personally" - Yep. Uber drivers can't accept a route for someone else, or vise-versa "The services are performed on a continuing basis for the same payer. That section you quoted applies if someone is in one of the four categories for a statutory employee. It's to decide whether to withhold Medicare and social security taxes from those already determined to be statutory employees. The closes of the four categories is the first (beverage or food delivery driver), but it doesn't fit Uber. Whether or not someone can subcontract is generally an important factor in employee contractor, but it's not necessarily determinative. In a variety of personal service cases you wouldn't want your contractor switching with someone else. However, you wouldn't mind if they hired others to handle the non-personal aspects of their business. Similarly, Uber doesn't care if drivers subcontract out cleaning and maintenance of their cars and other non-driving aspects. Whereas they would care if "Steve" is in fact "John", because the service depends on reviews. That's similar to, say, Upwork, where if I hire "Steve" I want to know I'm talking to Steve. I don't care if he subcontracts, but at least part of the situation must be handled by him, because he's the one with reviews. https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Statutory-Employees https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Emplo... Meanwhile, you quoted a line from the financial services section, business control. But take a look at the factors actually listed in that section: https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Financial-Control https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Emplo... As far as I understand it, Uber drivers have significant investment (their car), they have unreimbursed expenses (car maintenance, food while driving, etc.), they can profit and lose money (if they are no good and their expenses exceed earnings), their services are available in the market (they can drive for others), and payment is per trip rather than an hourly salary (this last one is the most ambiguous, there are likely special considerations for the transport market). I really don't think it's as clear cut as you're making it out to be.

graeme 11y ago
p.s. I'm not saying I'm right. I'm hardly an expert on US labor law. If I'm missing a major factor, I'm interested to hear what might be decisive in a case like Uber's.