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I think a lot of Europeans suffer over their keyboard layouts. I am Norwegian and a software developer. I hate Norwegian keyboard layout. It makes programming s

I think a lot of Europeans suffer over their keyboard layouts. I am Norwegian and a software developer. I hate Norwegian keyboard layout. It makes programming so much more awkward because the {}, [] and ; symbols used a lot in programming are not easily accessible. There is also a kind of tyranny in how computer companies deal with language. It is next to impossible to get an english layout Apple keyboard in Norway. Also Apple, and I pretty sure MS does the same treat language as a totally binary thing. Like either you write only english or only german, norwegian, french or whatever. For the non english speakers among us, especially those from small countries like Norway we mix in a lot of english in our writing. But spell checking software isn't really designed to handle that.

LoSboccacc 11y ago
like this? http://www.apple.com/no/shop/product/MB110FN/B/apple-tastatur-med-talltastatur http://www.apple.com/no/shop/product/MB110FN/B/apple-tastatu...
yodsanklai 11y ago
> It is next to impossible to get an english layout Apple keyboard in Norway. I'm surprised. Each time I ordered a laptop on the Apple Store, there was the option to choose the keyboard layout. > For the non english speakers among us, especially those from small countries like Norway we mix in a lot of english in our writing. But spell checking software isn't really designed to handle that. (Sorry to contradict you :)) But again, I found Mac OS to be very good at guessing the language I'm using in a text input field. I could type French now and it would be able to correct it! maybe it's not as polished for Norvergian. The only think I miss is the ability to lookup the definition of a French or Spanish word. By default, it only looks up english definitions when you click on words (if somebody knows how to achieve this, i'm interested!). > I think a lot of Europeans suffer over their keyboard layouts. Actually, I'm pretty fine with the AZERTY keyboard, even for programming. What I dislike is that I have to use both. My computer have qwerty keyboards, but sometimes I have to use French keyboard on other people's computers...
- jeffreyrogers 11y ago
  Maybe they meant in store? A friend of mine was studying in Denmark and his Macbook broke. He mentioned how hard it was to get a replacement with an American keyboard, so it seems to be a common problem.
- DerekL 11y ago
  > The only think I miss is the ability to lookup the definition of a French or Spanish word. By default, it only looks up english definitions when you click on words (if somebody knows how to achieve this, i'm interested!). Go to preferences in the Dictionary application.
goalieca 11y ago
This exactly my problem as a Canadian. I sometimes write in French but often in English. The spell checker drive me mad . It's bad enough that american english is the default or only option in a lot of cases. C++ with Canada multilingual keyboard because of the {} placement. I got used to it but not the easiest to stretch. Luckily I read more code than type.
andrey-g 11y ago
Wait, how does the national keyboard layout matter? Aren't you using the US layout when writing code?
- Someone1234 11y ago
  That isn't how keyboards work. If a key is assigned to a different keyboard code, then when you push the button the OS will recognise that code regardless of layout configuration. Norwegian keyboards have a different physical layout meaning different character codes are sent for the same location.
  - Mandatum 11y ago
    But surely there are tools to remap X-language physical keyboard codes to the US layout? Here's diagrams of the mappings. https://www.terena.org/activities/multiling/ml-mua/test/kbd-all.html https://www.terena.org/activities/multiling/ml-mua/test/kbd-... And here's usbkbd (note scancodes at the top): http://lxr.free-electrons.com/source/drivers/hid/usbhid/usbkbd.c http://lxr.free-electrons.com/source/drivers/hid/usbhid/usbk... Explanation on scancodes, which map to which keys for different physical boards: http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/scan.htm http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/scan.htm
    - Someone1234 11y ago
      I suppose you could use something like autohotkey to do that, but it would require intercepting and generating new key presses for every altered key on the keyboard, and could theoretically cause input-swaps if one keypress took longer than a subsequent keypress (e.g. due to a context switch).
kalleboo 11y ago
While as a coder I'm sympathetic, it still seems bizarre to me that []{} are dedicated keys when the vast majority of typists will almost never in their lives use them. I mean at least make it ()!!
wodenokoto 11y ago
It sucks that `~[]{} are so well hidden on Scandinavian keyboards (did people not program when these where made?), but what the hell are you on about with Apple? They do sell Macs with American keyboards in Norway (including laptops! no additional fee) and they have very easy software keyboard layout switching. I have 5 layouts on my OSX, and at least as many on my iPhone.
thawkins 11y ago
Absolutly agree, i spent months and months working on a contract in italy, writting c/c++ on keyboards without { or } . The only way to get it on the italian layout seemed to be to use A-123 and A-125, it drove me nuts. Eventualy i had to bring my own keyboard from the UK. because the bits of paper glued to the keys kept falling off.

LoSboccacc 11y ago

like this? http://www.apple.com/no/shop/product/MB110FN/B/apple-tastatur-med-talltastatur http://www.apple.com/no/shop/product/MB110FN/B/apple-tastatu...

yodsanklai 11y ago

> It is next to impossible to get an english layout Apple keyboard in Norway. I'm surprised. Each time I ordered a laptop on the Apple Store, there was the option to choose the keyboard layout. > For the non english speakers among us, especially those from small countries like Norway we mix in a lot of english in our writing. But spell checking software isn't really designed to handle that. (Sorry to contradict you :)) But again, I found Mac OS to be very good at guessing the language I'm using in a text input field. I could type French now and it would be able to correct it! maybe it's not as polished for Norvergian. The only think I miss is the ability to lookup the definition of a French or Spanish word. By default, it only looks up english definitions when you click on words (if somebody knows how to achieve this, i'm interested!). > I think a lot of Europeans suffer over their keyboard layouts. Actually, I'm pretty fine with the AZERTY keyboard, even for programming. What I dislike is that I have to use both. My computer have qwerty keyboards, but sometimes I have to use French keyboard on other people's computers...

jeffreyrogers 11y ago
Maybe they meant in store? A friend of mine was studying in Denmark and his Macbook broke. He mentioned how hard it was to get a replacement with an American keyboard, so it seems to be a common problem.
DerekL 11y ago
> The only think I miss is the ability to lookup the definition of a French or Spanish word. By default, it only looks up english definitions when you click on words (if somebody knows how to achieve this, i'm interested!). Go to preferences in the Dictionary application.

goalieca 11y ago

This exactly my problem as a Canadian. I sometimes write in French but often in English. The spell checker drive me mad . It's bad enough that american english is the default or only option in a lot of cases. C++ with Canada multilingual keyboard because of the {} placement. I got used to it but not the easiest to stretch. Luckily I read more code than type.

andrey-g 11y ago

Wait, how does the national keyboard layout matter? Aren't you using the US layout when writing code?

Someone1234 11y ago
That isn't how keyboards work. If a key is assigned to a different keyboard code, then when you push the button the OS will recognise that code regardless of layout configuration. Norwegian keyboards have a different physical layout meaning different character codes are sent for the same location.
- Mandatum 11y ago
  But surely there are tools to remap X-language physical keyboard codes to the US layout? Here's diagrams of the mappings. https://www.terena.org/activities/multiling/ml-mua/test/kbd-all.html https://www.terena.org/activities/multiling/ml-mua/test/kbd-... And here's usbkbd (note scancodes at the top): http://lxr.free-electrons.com/source/drivers/hid/usbhid/usbkbd.c http://lxr.free-electrons.com/source/drivers/hid/usbhid/usbk... Explanation on scancodes, which map to which keys for different physical boards: http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/scan.htm http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/scan.htm
  - Someone1234 11y ago
    I suppose you could use something like autohotkey to do that, but it would require intercepting and generating new key presses for every altered key on the keyboard, and could theoretically cause input-swaps if one keypress took longer than a subsequent keypress (e.g. due to a context switch).

kalleboo 11y ago

While as a coder I'm sympathetic, it still seems bizarre to me that []{} are dedicated keys when the vast majority of typists will almost never in their lives use them. I mean at least make it ()!!

wodenokoto 11y ago

It sucks that `~[]{} are so well hidden on Scandinavian keyboards (did people not program when these where made?), but what the hell are you on about with Apple? They do sell Macs with American keyboards in Norway (including laptops! no additional fee) and they have very easy software keyboard layout switching. I have 5 layouts on my OSX, and at least as many on my iPhone.

thawkins 11y ago

Absolutly agree, i spent months and months working on a contract in italy, writting c/c++ on keyboards without { or } . The only way to get it on the italian layout seemed to be to use A-123 and A-125, it drove me nuts. Eventualy i had to bring my own keyboard from the UK. because the bits of paper glued to the keys kept falling off.