4 ms·

>"No, the other option is for your customers to install Firefox. Now this isn't always something you can demand/expect of your users. But for example for a free

by mixmax 19y ago

>"No, the other option is for your customers to install Firefox. Now this isn't always something you can demand/expect of your users. But for example for a free service or during a beta period it's perfectly reasonable" So you think that users will go through the trouble of installing a new browser to see a free website or a product in beta? Good luck with that... It seems to me that a lot of really good programmers (of which you seem to be one, judging from your comments) don't mingle a lot with "normal" people. These are the ones that have normal lives, use their computer only as a tool that is expected to just work, and use IE because it came with the computer. And they are the ones that will pay for products. Early adopters are a really hard crowd to make money from, they expect everything to be free, and they will move on as soon as something more exciting comes along. I would never launch a product, not even in a beta, that only works in firefox, Not only do you lose more than half of your potential customers, but it also sends a signal that either you are not very good at what you do since you only seem to be able to make it work in one browser, or else that you don't much care. Both are pretty bad.

brlewis 19y ago
I interact with "normal" people, and at one family I know switched to Firefox because of the piclens plugin. It's actually not that uncommon for Windows users to install software on their computer off the Internet. They do so more than I do, actually. If I can't apt-get it I usually pass.
- mixmax 19y ago
  I didn't say that you won't get any users, just that you could have had roughly twice as many if you properly support all browsers. And this is all about business, yes ?
  - akkartik 19y ago
    That's as simplistic as arguing a startup should go for the largest market it can. Focus is worth a lot.
    - mixmax 19y ago
      I think you got it backwards. Yes, absolutely focus is essential. But once you decide what to make you want as many customers as possible. And that obviously includes not turning away half of your customers at the door. Which is what you do if you don't support IE. Unless of course you have chosen a niche where 95% of your users use firefox. I have yet to see the stats for such a site.
      - akkartik 19y ago
        That's a good point. Thanks.
  - xirium 19y ago
    When you're running a business, you have to succeed in all areas of activity from coding to marketing to admin and a whole lot of miscellaneous tasks. Do the 10% in each area which gets 90% of the result. Then backfill as appropriate. If you're developing an AJAX website then it is significantly easier to develop it using Firefox. Early adopters probably won't notice that it doesn't work on other browsers. Then fix the compatibility when you've got time. I'm astounded at the level of complexity facing contemporary web designers. I'm also appalled by the level of compatibility and stability between websites, browsers and plugins. 10 years ago, I could design a webpage and test on Netscape4. With no further testing, I knew how it would work or degrade on all browsers down to Lynx and Mosiac1.2. Many "designers" couldn't achieve that compatibility, even with a few iterations of feedback. That was just static HTML. Nowadays, you've got the added complexity of JavaScript1.5, CSS and smart web frameworks.
cstejerean 19y ago
Well it's certainly true that I probably mix with many regular users. But of the people I know my parents are the least likely to buy products from the web or sign up for a subscription website. But yes, they do run IE because it came with the computer. On the other hand a lot of my friends run either Ubuntu or OSX and shop online often. They tend to try out new services while they're still in Beta and sign up for paid services. So that's what I personally base my decision on when I take a first cut at building a webapp. YMMV
- mixmax 19y ago
  Well unless your friends are your core audience you should be wary of that approach. You tend to hang out with people that hold the same values that you do yourself. If you think that they are representative of the population as a whole you are headed for trouble. Just saying... :-)

by mixmax 19y ago

brlewis 19y ago

I interact with "normal" people, and at one family I know switched to Firefox because of the piclens plugin. It's actually not that uncommon for Windows users to install software on their computer off the Internet. They do so more than I do, actually. If I can't apt-get it I usually pass.

mixmax 19y ago
I didn't say that you won't get any users, just that you could have had roughly twice as many if you properly support all browsers. And this is all about business, yes ?
- akkartik 19y ago
  That's as simplistic as arguing a startup should go for the largest market it can. Focus is worth a lot.
  - mixmax 19y ago
    I think you got it backwards. Yes, absolutely focus is essential. But once you decide what to make you want as many customers as possible. And that obviously includes not turning away half of your customers at the door. Which is what you do if you don't support IE. Unless of course you have chosen a niche where 95% of your users use firefox. I have yet to see the stats for such a site.
    - akkartik 19y ago
      That's a good point. Thanks.
- xirium 19y ago
  When you're running a business, you have to succeed in all areas of activity from coding to marketing to admin and a whole lot of miscellaneous tasks. Do the 10% in each area which gets 90% of the result. Then backfill as appropriate. If you're developing an AJAX website then it is significantly easier to develop it using Firefox. Early adopters probably won't notice that it doesn't work on other browsers. Then fix the compatibility when you've got time. I'm astounded at the level of complexity facing contemporary web designers. I'm also appalled by the level of compatibility and stability between websites, browsers and plugins. 10 years ago, I could design a webpage and test on Netscape4. With no further testing, I knew how it would work or degrade on all browsers down to Lynx and Mosiac1.2. Many "designers" couldn't achieve that compatibility, even with a few iterations of feedback. That was just static HTML. Nowadays, you've got the added complexity of JavaScript1.5, CSS and smart web frameworks.

cstejerean 19y ago

Well it's certainly true that I probably mix with many regular users. But of the people I know my parents are the least likely to buy products from the web or sign up for a subscription website. But yes, they do run IE because it came with the computer. On the other hand a lot of my friends run either Ubuntu or OSX and shop online often. They tend to try out new services while they're still in Beta and sign up for paid services. So that's what I personally base my decision on when I take a first cut at building a webapp. YMMV

mixmax 19y ago
Well unless your friends are your core audience you should be wary of that approach. You tend to hang out with people that hold the same values that you do yourself. If you think that they are representative of the population as a whole you are headed for trouble. Just saying... :-)