7 ms·

Well I'm not an expert but it seems to me that in France we expect minorities to leave a good part of their culture and become "real french", eat cheese, wear b

by pingou 11y ago

Well I'm not an expert but it seems to me that in France we expect minorities to leave a good part of their culture and become "real french", eat cheese, wear beret and never walk without a baguette under their arms, whereas in the US I was under the impression that there's a lot more effort from minorities to differentiate themselves. I don't think we can really talk of a "black culture" in France (at least not in the same degree as in the US, but I may be mistaken). I wasn't talking about tourists, we are well known for behaving badly with them, sorry about that. What shocks me is not that she doesn't feel she has a lot in common with her colleagues, but that she thinks that it's because she's black and they're not.

joslin01 11y ago
+1 I see where you're coming from now. You're right about America and the culture of minorities, but in the melting pot, that's how everyone kind of is. We all feel like we have to be someone in America. It's impossible to just be American since there's really no such thing. The traditional American is a mid-western cowboy and that doesn't really apply to people on either coast.
- umanwizard 11y ago
  Exactly -- French people are the "indigenous people" of France. The "indigenous people" where I'm from are the Tohono O'odham. I've never met a Tohono O'odham person, so it's safe to say their impact on culture is minor. Thus, it's wrong to separate the US into "indigenous" and "foreign" in a way that makes sense in France (where French==indigenous). It's especially wrong to do so and then magically declare that Anglo-Saxons are the "indigenous" group that everyone else should try to be like.
  - wavefunction 11y ago
    There's no such thing as indigenous French people. Cultures between different regions like Brittany and Provence are quite different. The whole idea of European identities being strongly tied to nationalism and established defined groups is rather silly in my opinion. How about Alsace-Lorraine? German, or French? Belgium, is it Flemish or Walloon? Germany has different cultural regions, especially after the division following WWII. Italians have their own divisions between the North and South and other variations. The Scandinavian countries probably best fit a supposed monolithic national culture but that's changing with recent immigrants. The best that can be said is that language defines the peoples of Europe at this time.
- wbl 11y ago
  The cowboy only emerges in the 1840's. The New England farmer has been around a lot longer, since the 1600's. And yes, there is a culture of rural New England: things like contra dances, boiled dinners, etc.
rhino369 11y ago
America is undisputedly the best country at assimililating immigrants. It comes from doing it for centuries. We are one of the only countries with complete mixed ethnicities and a strong nationality. But that doesn't really work for blacks because they aren't a different culture, they are a subculture. Their culture has been a part of American culture from the beginning. For almost all of American history they were essentially banned from mainstream culture. So nobody can make them assimililate. They didn't come here as an immigrant. Their ancestors were kidnapped and enslaved here. FYI the world thinks France is particularly bad at assimilation. I don't know if that is just a stereotype but that's how it's viewed.
- fortes 11y ago
  > America is undisputedly the best country at assimililating immigrants. > It comes from doing it for centuries. We are one of the only countries with complete mixed ethnicities > and a strong nationality. I'll dispute that. In my experience, Brazil is a better melting pot. Anecdotal example: In Brazil, you don't see people claiming they are Irish when their families have lived in the US for generations.
  - rhino369 11y ago
    >Anecdotal example: In Brazil, you don't see people claiming they are Irish when their families have lived in the US for generations. That is actually the key to Americas success. The total separation of ethnicity and national identity. It allows an immigrant to keep their ethnic identity and merely add an American one. It's also helps when a white 5th generation american thinks they are Irish and American. They'll be less likely to believe that a newly arrived Mexican isn't really American. They intuitively know you can be both.
    - vinceguidry 11y ago
      That is something we inherited from the British. You can be British and any ethnicity. The US just took that idea and rolled with it. America's success results largely from its geography. Being isolated from Europe by a large ocean and having the mighty Mississippi river system to build an agricultural powerhouse from made it pretty much inevitable.
panglott 11y ago
White/black cultural differences in the US is a different issue from immigrant assimilation. Because black people are already "real Americans", and yet overall are culturally distinct from white Americans in some ways.
umanwizard 11y ago
You keep talking about "Blacks" vs. "real Americans" as though "real American" is defined as "belonging to White culture". Blacks in the US are not a "less-American" minority. US culture is multipolar. Why would Blacks assimilate to White culture? Why not Whites assimilate to Black culture? To me this sounds like saying Europe is bad at integrating minorities because French people haven't become German or English yet. A big difference is that Blacks have been in the US for hundreds of years, whereas they have only been in France in large numbers since after the war.
- serge2k 11y ago
  > To me this sounds like saying Europe is bad at integrating minorities because French people haven't become German or English yet. That's actually an interesting comparison to the states. The US has a lot of the regional cultures thing going on as well.

by pingou 11y ago

joslin01 11y ago

+1 I see where you're coming from now. You're right about America and the culture of minorities, but in the melting pot, that's how everyone kind of is. We all feel like we have to be someone in America. It's impossible to just be American since there's really no such thing. The traditional American is a mid-western cowboy and that doesn't really apply to people on either coast.

umanwizard 11y ago
Exactly -- French people are the "indigenous people" of France. The "indigenous people" where I'm from are the Tohono O'odham. I've never met a Tohono O'odham person, so it's safe to say their impact on culture is minor. Thus, it's wrong to separate the US into "indigenous" and "foreign" in a way that makes sense in France (where French==indigenous). It's especially wrong to do so and then magically declare that Anglo-Saxons are the "indigenous" group that everyone else should try to be like.
- wavefunction 11y ago
  There's no such thing as indigenous French people. Cultures between different regions like Brittany and Provence are quite different. The whole idea of European identities being strongly tied to nationalism and established defined groups is rather silly in my opinion. How about Alsace-Lorraine? German, or French? Belgium, is it Flemish or Walloon? Germany has different cultural regions, especially after the division following WWII. Italians have their own divisions between the North and South and other variations. The Scandinavian countries probably best fit a supposed monolithic national culture but that's changing with recent immigrants. The best that can be said is that language defines the peoples of Europe at this time.
wbl 11y ago
The cowboy only emerges in the 1840's. The New England farmer has been around a lot longer, since the 1600's. And yes, there is a culture of rural New England: things like contra dances, boiled dinners, etc.

rhino369 11y ago

America is undisputedly the best country at assimililating immigrants. It comes from doing it for centuries. We are one of the only countries with complete mixed ethnicities and a strong nationality. But that doesn't really work for blacks because they aren't a different culture, they are a subculture. Their culture has been a part of American culture from the beginning. For almost all of American history they were essentially banned from mainstream culture. So nobody can make them assimililate. They didn't come here as an immigrant. Their ancestors were kidnapped and enslaved here. FYI the world thinks France is particularly bad at assimilation. I don't know if that is just a stereotype but that's how it's viewed.

fortes 11y ago
> America is undisputedly the best country at assimililating immigrants. > It comes from doing it for centuries. We are one of the only countries with complete mixed ethnicities > and a strong nationality. I'll dispute that. In my experience, Brazil is a better melting pot. Anecdotal example: In Brazil, you don't see people claiming they are Irish when their families have lived in the US for generations.
- rhino369 11y ago
  >Anecdotal example: In Brazil, you don't see people claiming they are Irish when their families have lived in the US for generations. That is actually the key to Americas success. The total separation of ethnicity and national identity. It allows an immigrant to keep their ethnic identity and merely add an American one. It's also helps when a white 5th generation american thinks they are Irish and American. They'll be less likely to believe that a newly arrived Mexican isn't really American. They intuitively know you can be both.
  - vinceguidry 11y ago
    That is something we inherited from the British. You can be British and any ethnicity. The US just took that idea and rolled with it. America's success results largely from its geography. Being isolated from Europe by a large ocean and having the mighty Mississippi river system to build an agricultural powerhouse from made it pretty much inevitable.

panglott 11y ago

White/black cultural differences in the US is a different issue from immigrant assimilation. Because black people are already "real Americans", and yet overall are culturally distinct from white Americans in some ways.

umanwizard 11y ago

You keep talking about "Blacks" vs. "real Americans" as though "real American" is defined as "belonging to White culture". Blacks in the US are not a "less-American" minority. US culture is multipolar. Why would Blacks assimilate to White culture? Why not Whites assimilate to Black culture? To me this sounds like saying Europe is bad at integrating minorities because French people haven't become German or English yet. A big difference is that Blacks have been in the US for hundreds of years, whereas they have only been in France in large numbers since after the war.

serge2k 11y ago
> To me this sounds like saying Europe is bad at integrating minorities because French people haven't become German or English yet. That's actually an interesting comparison to the states. The US has a lot of the regional cultures thing going on as well.