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> Yikes! This is brilliant innovation, but it should come with a pretty serious warning somewhere about the potential dangers of medical ultrasound. While the j

by maho 11y ago

> Yikes! This is brilliant innovation, but it should come with a pretty serious warning somewhere about the potential dangers of medical ultrasound. While the jury is still out about a lot of things, there are major reasons why the NHS in Britain discourages expectant mothers from having private "4D" scans and additional procedures. This is an overstatement of the available evidence. The link you post says so itself: > These studies have found no evidence that ultrasound affects mortality around the time of pregnancy or birth, or has any effect on childhood cancers. In randomised-controlled trials there has been ‘weak evidence’ that it may affect whether a child is right or left handed (known as handedness), which the reviewers say may be the result of confounding, rather than actual causation. I cringe when I read well-meaning but irrelevant warnings like the one you gave. To me, these warnings are somewhere between naysaying and spreading FUD. The NHS wants to make sure that millions of people don't take unnecessary ultrasounds, since a tiny risk, multiplied by millions, equals a few unnecessary deaths/left-handed children. The individual risk of unnecessary ultrasounds, however, is extremely low compared to the usual risks of pregrancy and childbirth. Many medical devices are unnecessarily expensive (and suprisingly badly designed, from a user-interface standpoint). There are already enough regulatory hurdles in place that prevent disruption of the medical device markets, let us not add to these hurdles by being overly cautious!

pc86 11y ago
I don't want to devolve the thread but I have to say I chuckled at the thought of "unnecessary left-handed children."
bencollier49 11y ago
I think it's worthwhile pointing out that the warning isn't against taking necessary ultrasounds, but unnecessary ones. And if there's a tiny risk from an unnecessary procedure, then why take it? And the concern with the device in the link is that it's an unregulated ultrasound device which could, in the hands of someone well-meaning but ill-advised, deliver a dose of ultrasound far in excess of that deemed safe by regulators.
- kelu124 11y ago
  The usual comment we hear on usage of this is that OSH equipment like a simple hammer would have to present a disclaimer such as "Can be fatal if used wrongly -- bashing one's head with this device may prove dangerous" - but doesn't bring a lot to the debate. That being said, open source medical hardware is quite a new field, and lot of aspects need to be matured.
kej 11y ago
I think his warning is appropriate, not so much because medical ultrasounds are dangerous, but because your homemade device probably doesn't have the same level of testing and oversight that your doctor's does. We know that ultrasound machines can cause warming and cavitation, and while these effects are minor when part of an ultrasound at the doctor's office, it's not hard to see how a homemade device that emits more radiation than necessary could exacerbate those effects.
dharma1 11y ago
It's not just NHS - http://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm095508.htm http://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm095508.ht... I've read about ultrasound induced bubbles destroying tiny amounts of tissue - probably not a huge individual risk like you say, but at the same time not one worth taking for vanity baby scans, and at scale of millions of people doing it the risks might play out for some unlucky babies. Having said that, I think this project is wonderful. There are so many uses for ultrasound.
crispyambulance 11y ago
Sorry, but imaging a living person with a "hacker" ultrasound scanner is asking for trouble. How can anyone be assured that this thing isn't transmitting too much energy into the tissue being imaged?
- daveguy 11y ago
  This. Ultrasound is a great non-invasive medical imaging technique. The safety of medical imaging is well established: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2390856/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2390856/ ... PLEASE NOTE THE POWER LEVELS USED IN MEDICAL IMAGING APPLICATIONS: LESS THAN 720 mW/cm^2 (and possibly less for other types of imaging, this is just one study) that is milliwatts / cubic centimeter. It is VERY IMPORTANT to consider power delivery. Ultrasonic pulses are also a commonly used for lysing bacterial cells during protein purification -- essentially turning cells to mush. If, in your DIY project, you accidentally "turn it up to 11" (don't know the acutal power level threshold and do not want to find out) -- You could also turn your own cells to mush. Here is an example of ultrasonic cell preparation equipment (200 Watt range): http://www.hielscher.com/ultrasonic-lysis-cell-disruption-extraction.htm http://www.hielscher.com/ultrasonic-lysis-cell-disruption-ex... So. Please pay attention to the safety concerns of ultrasonic imaging, do all of your testing on fruit and use a high quality bench top regulated power supply.
DanBC 11y ago
> The NHS wants to make sure that millions of people don't take unnecessary ultrasounds, since a tiny risk, multiplied by millions, equals a few unnecessary deaths/left-handed children. The NHS warns against un-needed tests because of the risk of false positive results and un-needed treatment. The test itself has minimal risk, but most treatment has some more risk.
jabits 11y ago
Many years ago my grandfather owned a retail shoe store in Appleton, WI (back before malls). They used an x-ray machine to aid in sizing shoes. As a kid, years after it was put out of service, I came across it in the store basement. The device was about the size of a washing machine, made of a fine cabinet wood, and had a crt on top that allowed customers an x-ray view of their feet with the new shoes on. Fortunately it was no longer working when I found it. The point is, lack of evidence is no reason to assume a non-invasive procedure is safe. There should be many "hurdles" in place to prevent unsafe medical devices. This is an area where very few consumers can analyze the risk.
- CyberDildonics 11y ago
  Are you seriously equating electro-magnetic radiation at a frequency high enough to be de-ionizing with the compression of fluids? The difference here is that we know how both of these things work.
- mrfusion 11y ago
  Combining the two topics... why can't we use ultrasound to size shoes? Anyone want to work on that with me?
  - semi-extrinsic 11y ago
    Because there are many small air gaps between the shoes and the feet. The impedance mismatch would be huge, and likely throw your signal deep into noise territory. Have you seen the amount of jelly they spread on your skin for medical ultrasounds? I don't think having to submerge your feet in liquid when trying out shoes would win many customers.
    - mrfusion 11y ago
      But in this case you just need a very rough 2d outline. I believe some stud finders use ultrasound. This might be more similar to that than a medical ultrasound.
- aaron695 11y ago

by maho 11y ago

pc86 11y ago

I don't want to devolve the thread but I have to say I chuckled at the thought of "unnecessary left-handed children."

bencollier49 11y ago

I think it's worthwhile pointing out that the warning isn't against taking necessary ultrasounds, but unnecessary ones. And if there's a tiny risk from an unnecessary procedure, then why take it? And the concern with the device in the link is that it's an unregulated ultrasound device which could, in the hands of someone well-meaning but ill-advised, deliver a dose of ultrasound far in excess of that deemed safe by regulators.

kelu124 11y ago
The usual comment we hear on usage of this is that OSH equipment like a simple hammer would have to present a disclaimer such as "Can be fatal if used wrongly -- bashing one's head with this device may prove dangerous" - but doesn't bring a lot to the debate. That being said, open source medical hardware is quite a new field, and lot of aspects need to be matured.

kej 11y ago

I think his warning is appropriate, not so much because medical ultrasounds are dangerous, but because your homemade device probably doesn't have the same level of testing and oversight that your doctor's does. We know that ultrasound machines can cause warming and cavitation, and while these effects are minor when part of an ultrasound at the doctor's office, it's not hard to see how a homemade device that emits more radiation than necessary could exacerbate those effects.

dharma1 11y ago

It's not just NHS - http://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm095508.htm http://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm095508.ht... I've read about ultrasound induced bubbles destroying tiny amounts of tissue - probably not a huge individual risk like you say, but at the same time not one worth taking for vanity baby scans, and at scale of millions of people doing it the risks might play out for some unlucky babies. Having said that, I think this project is wonderful. There are so many uses for ultrasound.

crispyambulance 11y ago

Sorry, but imaging a living person with a "hacker" ultrasound scanner is asking for trouble. How can anyone be assured that this thing isn't transmitting too much energy into the tissue being imaged?

daveguy 11y ago
This. Ultrasound is a great non-invasive medical imaging technique. The safety of medical imaging is well established: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2390856/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2390856/ ... PLEASE NOTE THE POWER LEVELS USED IN MEDICAL IMAGING APPLICATIONS: LESS THAN 720 mW/cm^2 (and possibly less for other types of imaging, this is just one study) that is milliwatts / cubic centimeter. It is VERY IMPORTANT to consider power delivery. Ultrasonic pulses are also a commonly used for lysing bacterial cells during protein purification -- essentially turning cells to mush. If, in your DIY project, you accidentally "turn it up to 11" (don't know the acutal power level threshold and do not want to find out) -- You could also turn your own cells to mush. Here is an example of ultrasonic cell preparation equipment (200 Watt range): http://www.hielscher.com/ultrasonic-lysis-cell-disruption-extraction.htm http://www.hielscher.com/ultrasonic-lysis-cell-disruption-ex... So. Please pay attention to the safety concerns of ultrasonic imaging, do all of your testing on fruit and use a high quality bench top regulated power supply.

DanBC 11y ago

> The NHS wants to make sure that millions of people don't take unnecessary ultrasounds, since a tiny risk, multiplied by millions, equals a few unnecessary deaths/left-handed children. The NHS warns against un-needed tests because of the risk of false positive results and un-needed treatment. The test itself has minimal risk, but most treatment has some more risk.

jabits 11y ago

Many years ago my grandfather owned a retail shoe store in Appleton, WI (back before malls). They used an x-ray machine to aid in sizing shoes. As a kid, years after it was put out of service, I came across it in the store basement. The device was about the size of a washing machine, made of a fine cabinet wood, and had a crt on top that allowed customers an x-ray view of their feet with the new shoes on. Fortunately it was no longer working when I found it. The point is, lack of evidence is no reason to assume a non-invasive procedure is safe. There should be many "hurdles" in place to prevent unsafe medical devices. This is an area where very few consumers can analyze the risk.

CyberDildonics 11y ago
Are you seriously equating electro-magnetic radiation at a frequency high enough to be de-ionizing with the compression of fluids? The difference here is that we know how both of these things work.
mrfusion 11y ago
Combining the two topics... why can't we use ultrasound to size shoes? Anyone want to work on that with me?
- semi-extrinsic 11y ago
  Because there are many small air gaps between the shoes and the feet. The impedance mismatch would be huge, and likely throw your signal deep into noise territory. Have you seen the amount of jelly they spread on your skin for medical ultrasounds? I don't think having to submerge your feet in liquid when trying out shoes would win many customers.
  - mrfusion 11y ago
    But in this case you just need a very rough 2d outline. I believe some stud finders use ultrasound. This might be more similar to that than a medical ultrasound.
aaron695 11y ago