4 ms·

I would say some of the students in the article probably aren't SV material - "They’d begun studying computer science in college"? So you've been involved with

by bdavisx 11y ago

I would say some of the students in the article probably aren't SV material - "They’d begun studying computer science in college"? So you've been involved with computers for 4 whole years and you think you're qualified for a top tier job? I'm sure not all of the students only started in college - I'm also not naive enough to think there isn't prejudice in SV, but didn't start until college...

chipgap98 11y ago
I think its kinda ridiculous to say that to be 'SV material' you need to have started studying CS before college
- MollyR 11y ago
  Well I don't know about that. When I interviewed for google during my last year in college(on campus interview), they asked for my high school grades, SAT scores, and if I learned any CS principles in middle or high school.
- x1024 11y ago
  Why would you think that? You believe there is less than 4 years of material in all of CS?
  - dagw 11y ago
    How much CS knowledge do you need to hack on a simple CRUD app?
    - x1024 11y ago
      Depends, do you want it to actually work?
- golergka 11y ago
  I don't know about 'SV material', but I certainly didn't see a lot of "10x" software engineers who were not writing code by the time they were 13-15. Clarification: I'm not saying that it's a necessary requirement; I'm just saying that I certainly see a correlation.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- lectrick 11y ago
  I think they're more looking for a sign that you had an early and therefore natural curiosity to tinker with the mechanisms in the world. Not "CS" per se, but just... computer tinkering. If your family couldn't afford a computer, IMHO, if you at least, say, took a clock or motor apart or something, that would be a good indicator, too. By the way, this has been brought up as the reason for the dropoff in the women who enter CS curricula in college. Ever since home PC's became affordable, freshman CS classes have basically assumed prior (and thorough) computer experience, and many women who might otherwise become good programmers, for whatever reason (society influence, etc.) have had waaaay less hands-on time with computers than boys, when they become freshmen. That said, I have met some excellent programmers who started out doing something that is superficially completely different (musicians, for example).
  - ghaff 11y ago
    >freshman CS classes have basically assumed prior (and thorough) computer experience I imagine that it depends on the school but there's probably some truth to that. I've taken a couple of "Intro to Programming" type classes from top schools. I found the material quite manageable--but then I have a moderate amount of programming experience even though I don't do it for a living. I'm pretty sure that if this were the first time I saw a computer command line or wrote code, I'd have been lost. Freshman physics at those schools may be challenging but it doesn't assume a whole lot of prior exposure (other than an appropriate level of math).
  - norea-armozel 11y ago
    I never had any distinct interest in computer science. My original interests were physics and art. In fact, I would say those are still my strengths over all. But I went into CS after I found it interesting in regards to what a person can do with a computer with little effort (in as much as the tools involved).
    - lectrick 11y ago
      I think physics and art are nearly the perfect potential sources of a good programmer
- massysett 11y ago
  Formal CS study no, but I would think having some exposure to programming concepts would help. Sort of like how one would expect a music major to have had at least some curiosity about music, or an art student to have picked up a pencil or some paint.
- 3chelon 11y ago
  How so? Many of the classic Valley proto-entrepreneurs (Gates, Jobs, etc) famously dropped out of college. From my own experience, I probably learned about 75% of what I needed to know about programming before I went to university. I'm not sure how easy it is to gain that valuable bedrock experience in an academic environment.
  - fennecfoxen 11y ago
    The key, then, is to gain that valuable bedrock experience outside the academic environment. This can obviously be hit-or-miss, and we shouldn't be surprised if we see someone miss.
- fennecfoxen 11y ago
  I think it depends on what part of Silicon Valley you're aiming for. A lot of the big-name places seem to be weird and incredibly theory/algorithms-heavy, whereas most other places being good at organizing systems is more important. But go too far down the scale and you'll find lot of the small startups need you to have context across the entire stack - you might be doing Ruby one moment, CSS the next, then BGP configuration for your cloud gateway after that. Places that are medium-small to large-but-unsexy can provide more of the entry-level experience. (Not a lot of them are really good, though, so you can't always expect to stay working there forever.)
- dagw 11y ago
  Perhaps, but since you have more than enough candidates who did start way before college, it's not unreasonable to priorities hiring them.
  - FLUX-YOU 11y ago
    Something like that seems so easy to fake. If you have the knowledge now, how is anyone going to prove you wrong if you say you learned it at 13?
codingdave 11y ago
I would say statements like that are exactly why some people don't feel welcome in SV.
rquantz 11y ago
People of lower economic circumstances may not have had access to computers prior to college.
- jjaredsimpson 11y ago
  Why is this relevant?
  - rquantz 11y ago
    The topic at hand is "why Silicon Valley companies do not hire black people." Connect the dots?
- golergka 11y ago
  In 1990? Likely. In 2010? This article is supposed to be about US, not a third-world country, right?
  - rquantz 11y ago
    Did you not realize that US education is on par with a third world country in a lot of regions?
    - hueving 11y ago
      Access to a computer has little to do with education anymore. If someone wants to tinker with computers, they can use one in a library or just get an old one for <$100.
      - rquantz 11y ago
        Theoretically, yes. In practice, no. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/13/business/media/13drill.html http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/13/business/media/13drill.htm...
      - GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
        When was the last time you tried to use a library computer?
popmystack 11y ago
This kind of attitude is exactly why I tend to avoid recruiting out in the west coast. There is nothing about "SV material" that translates directly into productive output. It's all ego, with no substance to back it up. And in our company, I certainly have the data to prove it. Although it pains me that I can't share it, especially with the "community" at HN. And yes, we offer extremely competitive salaries not typical of the east coast.
itg 11y ago
I'm amazed at the replies that think if you didn't start programming since you were young, then you are seen as worthless. Majority of my fellow CS grads didn't write their first line of code until college and after a few semesters, most of them caught up with or surpassed the ones who learned programming since they were young. Almost all of us now work in great companies and some went on to do PhD's. I honestly hope I never have to work with people are arrogant and ignorant as you.
- wandering2 11y ago
  I'm a senior in CS at the moment; I declared somewhat late, and I never did any programming until my sophomore year. Before I got into in CS, I was worried that classes would assume outside knowledge (beyond prerequisite classes), and that my classmates that had programmed in high school or earlier would be way ahead in terms of ability. In my experience (and this is at a "top" school/program), this has not been the case at all. In fact, a lot of the types that already had prior experience seemed to struggle when it came to more difficult or theoretical/mathematically rigorous classes (e.g. Algorithms & data structures etc.). I suspect that a lot of those who had already programmed did a lot of little personal projects or hacks. Maybe they learned some different languages, played around on the command line, generally dabbled in different areas of CS and software, etc. But I think the kind of skills gained from doing these sorts of things are mostly trivial. The types of problems solved in most typical apps and websites are not that difficult technically. You learn about a lot of the difficult problems in software and computability through CS material. And the other difficult problems are engineering ones - things like necessarily complex systems with lots dependencies, large-scale or scalable systems, software with high technical demands, comprehensive testing etc. etc. But that kind of thing is learned on the job, or at least in some kind of capable team working on an important project. Not by writing little scripts or apps on your own. Learning how to write readable, modularized code can be naturally (and fairly quickly) learned in intro classes if you are mindful and dedicated to improving. However, this is just my own experience and observations. And there is no doubt that there are plenty of people out there who started at a young age, and are also superb at computer science and/or are fantastic engineers. But I don't think that in itself is a great predictor of someone's capability.
FLUX-YOU 11y ago
Plenty of fresh grads get hired out of ivy league and higher end schools, so I'm going to go with yes.
pconner 11y ago
I never programmed before college, and my first job after college is at a highly-reputable SV software company. I know plenty of other people in the same situation.

by bdavisx 11y ago

chipgap98 11y ago

I think its kinda ridiculous to say that to be 'SV material' you need to have started studying CS before college

MollyR 11y ago
Well I don't know about that. When I interviewed for google during my last year in college(on campus interview), they asked for my high school grades, SAT scores, and if I learned any CS principles in middle or high school.
x1024 11y ago
Why would you think that? You believe there is less than 4 years of material in all of CS?
- dagw 11y ago
  How much CS knowledge do you need to hack on a simple CRUD app?
  - x1024 11y ago
    Depends, do you want it to actually work?
golergka 11y ago
I don't know about 'SV material', but I certainly didn't see a lot of "10x" software engineers who were not writing code by the time they were 13-15. Clarification: I'm not saying that it's a necessary requirement; I'm just saying that I certainly see a correlation.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
lectrick 11y ago
I think they're more looking for a sign that you had an early and therefore natural curiosity to tinker with the mechanisms in the world. Not "CS" per se, but just... computer tinkering. If your family couldn't afford a computer, IMHO, if you at least, say, took a clock or motor apart or something, that would be a good indicator, too. By the way, this has been brought up as the reason for the dropoff in the women who enter CS curricula in college. Ever since home PC's became affordable, freshman CS classes have basically assumed prior (and thorough) computer experience, and many women who might otherwise become good programmers, for whatever reason (society influence, etc.) have had waaaay less hands-on time with computers than boys, when they become freshmen. That said, I have met some excellent programmers who started out doing something that is superficially completely different (musicians, for example).
- ghaff 11y ago
  >freshman CS classes have basically assumed prior (and thorough) computer experience I imagine that it depends on the school but there's probably some truth to that. I've taken a couple of "Intro to Programming" type classes from top schools. I found the material quite manageable--but then I have a moderate amount of programming experience even though I don't do it for a living. I'm pretty sure that if this were the first time I saw a computer command line or wrote code, I'd have been lost. Freshman physics at those schools may be challenging but it doesn't assume a whole lot of prior exposure (other than an appropriate level of math).
- norea-armozel 11y ago
  I never had any distinct interest in computer science. My original interests were physics and art. In fact, I would say those are still my strengths over all. But I went into CS after I found it interesting in regards to what a person can do with a computer with little effort (in as much as the tools involved).
  - lectrick 11y ago
    I think physics and art are nearly the perfect potential sources of a good programmer
massysett 11y ago
Formal CS study no, but I would think having some exposure to programming concepts would help. Sort of like how one would expect a music major to have had at least some curiosity about music, or an art student to have picked up a pencil or some paint.
3chelon 11y ago
How so? Many of the classic Valley proto-entrepreneurs (Gates, Jobs, etc) famously dropped out of college. From my own experience, I probably learned about 75% of what I needed to know about programming before I went to university. I'm not sure how easy it is to gain that valuable bedrock experience in an academic environment.
- fennecfoxen 11y ago
  The key, then, is to gain that valuable bedrock experience outside the academic environment. This can obviously be hit-or-miss, and we shouldn't be surprised if we see someone miss.
fennecfoxen 11y ago
I think it depends on what part of Silicon Valley you're aiming for. A lot of the big-name places seem to be weird and incredibly theory/algorithms-heavy, whereas most other places being good at organizing systems is more important. But go too far down the scale and you'll find lot of the small startups need you to have context across the entire stack - you might be doing Ruby one moment, CSS the next, then BGP configuration for your cloud gateway after that. Places that are medium-small to large-but-unsexy can provide more of the entry-level experience. (Not a lot of them are really good, though, so you can't always expect to stay working there forever.)
dagw 11y ago
Perhaps, but since you have more than enough candidates who did start way before college, it's not unreasonable to priorities hiring them.
- FLUX-YOU 11y ago
  Something like that seems so easy to fake. If you have the knowledge now, how is anyone going to prove you wrong if you say you learned it at 13?

codingdave 11y ago

I would say statements like that are exactly why some people don't feel welcome in SV.

rquantz 11y ago

People of lower economic circumstances may not have had access to computers prior to college.

jjaredsimpson 11y ago
Why is this relevant?
- rquantz 11y ago
  The topic at hand is "why Silicon Valley companies do not hire black people." Connect the dots?
golergka 11y ago
In 1990? Likely. In 2010? This article is supposed to be about US, not a third-world country, right?
- rquantz 11y ago
  Did you not realize that US education is on par with a third world country in a lot of regions?
  - hueving 11y ago
    Access to a computer has little to do with education anymore. If someone wants to tinker with computers, they can use one in a library or just get an old one for <$100.
    - rquantz 11y ago
      Theoretically, yes. In practice, no. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/13/business/media/13drill.html http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/13/business/media/13drill.htm...
    - GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
      When was the last time you tried to use a library computer?

popmystack 11y ago

This kind of attitude is exactly why I tend to avoid recruiting out in the west coast. There is nothing about "SV material" that translates directly into productive output. It's all ego, with no substance to back it up. And in our company, I certainly have the data to prove it. Although it pains me that I can't share it, especially with the "community" at HN. And yes, we offer extremely competitive salaries not typical of the east coast.

itg 11y ago

I'm amazed at the replies that think if you didn't start programming since you were young, then you are seen as worthless. Majority of my fellow CS grads didn't write their first line of code until college and after a few semesters, most of them caught up with or surpassed the ones who learned programming since they were young. Almost all of us now work in great companies and some went on to do PhD's. I honestly hope I never have to work with people are arrogant and ignorant as you.

wandering2 11y ago
I'm a senior in CS at the moment; I declared somewhat late, and I never did any programming until my sophomore year. Before I got into in CS, I was worried that classes would assume outside knowledge (beyond prerequisite classes), and that my classmates that had programmed in high school or earlier would be way ahead in terms of ability. In my experience (and this is at a "top" school/program), this has not been the case at all. In fact, a lot of the types that already had prior experience seemed to struggle when it came to more difficult or theoretical/mathematically rigorous classes (e.g. Algorithms & data structures etc.). I suspect that a lot of those who had already programmed did a lot of little personal projects or hacks. Maybe they learned some different languages, played around on the command line, generally dabbled in different areas of CS and software, etc. But I think the kind of skills gained from doing these sorts of things are mostly trivial. The types of problems solved in most typical apps and websites are not that difficult technically. You learn about a lot of the difficult problems in software and computability through CS material. And the other difficult problems are engineering ones - things like necessarily complex systems with lots dependencies, large-scale or scalable systems, software with high technical demands, comprehensive testing etc. etc. But that kind of thing is learned on the job, or at least in some kind of capable team working on an important project. Not by writing little scripts or apps on your own. Learning how to write readable, modularized code can be naturally (and fairly quickly) learned in intro classes if you are mindful and dedicated to improving. However, this is just my own experience and observations. And there is no doubt that there are plenty of people out there who started at a young age, and are also superb at computer science and/or are fantastic engineers. But I don't think that in itself is a great predictor of someone's capability.

FLUX-YOU 11y ago

Plenty of fresh grads get hired out of ivy league and higher end schools, so I'm going to go with yes.

pconner 11y ago

I never programmed before college, and my first job after college is at a highly-reputable SV software company. I know plenty of other people in the same situation.