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I am not sure how I feel about this. Now that I have a family and children, I want to live in an area where my neighbors are at the same socioeconomic level.

I am not sure how I feel about this. Now that I have a family and children, I want to live in an area where my neighbors are at the same socioeconomic level. I don't want my neighbor to be way richer or way poorer than we are. I don't see how that is bad, wrong or racist!!!

rubidium 11y ago
Empathy and humility are two benefits of living next to neighbors who are way richer or poorer. Here's where I'm glad I'm anonymous here, so this can't be construed as bragging but rather adding a different viewpoint: I live in a neighborhood (married with kid) where my income is x4 that of my neighborhood (and I'm making less than the national average salary for a sr. software developer). It's humbling and drives me to find ways to care for those around me.
- Frondo 11y ago
  Hear hear! I live not far from a really, really run-down part of town, with a grocery store that seems to attract the most downtrodden of society. I love shopping there, even though everyone I know has sworn it off, because of how it always reminds me: a lot of people have it much worse off than me, but they are still human and worthy of compassion and respect. I'll shop there even after I've sold my business and have enough pocket money to share, because I never want to lose touch with the non-shiny, fat, missing-limbs, dirt-poor, you name it, humanity that everyone else wants to forget about as quickly as possible.
hyperpape 11y ago
Stop and think of it not in terms or whether it reflects badly on you but on the consequences for society. There is nothing good that can be said for creating enclaves of poverty.
- yummyfajitas 11y ago
  Sure there is. We are often told that inequality is a bad thing. We are also often told that this effect is local, not global. I.e., people complain about rising within-country inequality and barely talk about falling global inequality. By keeping the rich away from the poor we can avoid the harms of inequality. We can have poor neighborhoods, rich neighborhoods, etc, each of which has negligible inequality.
  - hyperpape 11y ago
    This is either very good sarcasm or...
    - jedharris 11y ago
      ... or a more or less rational response demonstrating that the challenge by the previous commenter "nothing good to say" can be met by a sufficiently twisted mind.
      - someguydave 11y ago
        Not to mention, the grandparent's suggestion has the side-benefit of more-or-less being global reality already.
    - yummyfajitas 11y ago
      I'm following the premises of inequality mongers and deriving logically a conclusion that disagrees with their mood affiliation. Do you disagree with the premise that local inequality is worse than global?
- brbsix 11y ago
  As a parent, you have an obligation to provide your child with the best, safest, environment that you are reasonably able to provide. More upscale neighborhoods generally have better schools, activities, opportunities, and so forth. It is absolute madness to disregard this solely because of some vague, unknown societal effects hypothesized in a policy paper.
  - tobbyb 11y ago
    And rightly so. But are poor people not allowed or entitled to have the same level of safety and benefits for their family like everyone else, or is it ok to associate and tar an entire socioeconomic group with crime and drugs as some seem to do and leave them to their fate? How is this an egalitarian, equal or democratic society that discriminates against kids even before they are born? Poor people have no choice but to live with it while the more resourceful can afford to isolate and protect themselves but that's not an equal society or one that aspires to be one. No one can advocate that one should not try to get the best for themselves and their children but the if the bare basics of education, healthcare and safety are reliant on socio economic background that there is little incentive for those in power who are always from a privileged socioeconomic background to actually provide meaningful equality beyond posturing. I think there is a danger of an exclusionary way of thinking that encourages ghettos and the kind of entitled thinking often seen here itself on hacker news that presumes in spite of all these disadvantages somehow all these children should compete fairly and succeed with their more privileged counterparts and if they don't and get stuck in a cycle of poverty they only have themselves to blame. This kind of thinking leads to a bigoted society, and you then can't complain when you or your children are similarly excluded by those from a higher social-economic background in neighborhoods and other aspects of life, when not possible legally by financial or social means. This doesn't produce an enlightened and egalitarian society, you reap what you sow.
  - sanderjd 11y ago
    > As a parent, you have an obligation to provide your child with the best, safest, environment that you are reasonably able to provide. Ah, see, I'm not a parent, so who knows, my perspective may well change when I am, but if you asked me what a parent's job is, that is not the first thing I would say. I think I would instead say something hand-wavy about raising valuable, high functioning, members of adult society. Certainly, safety is a prerequisite to making it into adult society, but it seems like quite a lot of the stuff parents do to try to provide their child with "the best, safest, environment that they are reasonably able to provide" is counter to the main goal of raising good people. Keeping kids segregated from "those people" (whoever that happens to be in the parents' view) is a perfect example.
sjg007 11y ago
Society benefits and so do you from socioeconomic ally integrated neighborhoods. You get cooks and shops staffed. You get people who dine out etc. It takes a village can also be it takes a neighborhood.
- Nutmog 11y ago
  You also get crime. That's probably the biggest factor pushing middle class people away from poor neighborhoods. Nevermind that the innocent poor people stuck in those neighborhoods have to suffer the crime.
  - mcv 11y ago
    That sounds like it's mostly the result of a lack of law enforcement, and a lack of good social programs. Crime can be addressed.
  - sjg007 11y ago
    It's not just poor people who commit crime.
mikeash 11y ago
Why does having a family make you not want to have neighbors who are way richer or poorer than you are? Me, I just want to have good neighbors. Both rich and poor people can be good neighbors.
- im2w1l 11y ago
  Probably he doesn't want his kids to do drugs and crime and get shitty grades. Or be the victim of crime
  - mikeash 11y ago
    That's unfair. Not all rich people are criminals.
  - jedharris 11y ago
    Also not all rich people are druggies.
mcv 11y ago
Now that I have family and children, I find it important that my children have contact with people in different socioecenomic situations, so they understand that not everybody lives like us. I'm very glad that one of the best friends of my oldest son is Moroccan, and another is half Japanese, although his school is still remarkable white for this neighbourhood (perhaps Montessori schools appeal more to white, educated or affluent people?). Of course in the end, I don't want anyone to be way richer or poorer than we are, but as long as that's the reality we live in, I'd like my children to be aware of that.
eibrahim 11y ago
sorry for the late response but stupid HN doesn't notify me when i get a response. I will bitch about this until they implement it :) You guys bring up a ton of great points. I do want my kids to be aware of other "classes" not to grow up in a bubble but I don't have to live next to a poor neighbor for them to understand poverty and care about the poor. I grew up middle class most of my life and I have a lot of empathy (I think/hope) mostly because my parents taught me that. I remember when I didn't finish my food as a kid my dad would say "there are children starving in Ethiopia and you want to throw half your plate away" (no offense, i grew up in Egypt as a kid and there was a famine in Ethiopia at the time). Or when a button on a shirt falls off, my mom would fix it instead of just throwing away the entire shirt like many people in the USA would do (I assume). Or collecting money for a struggling family in our church... These are all small examples but they helped me understand that not everyone had it as good/bad as we did. My point is, you can teach your kid empathy and compassion. Take them to feed the homeless, have them donate money to the poor. make sandwiches for a shelter. etc. etc...

rubidium 11y ago

Empathy and humility are two benefits of living next to neighbors who are way richer or poorer. Here's where I'm glad I'm anonymous here, so this can't be construed as bragging but rather adding a different viewpoint: I live in a neighborhood (married with kid) where my income is x4 that of my neighborhood (and I'm making less than the national average salary for a sr. software developer). It's humbling and drives me to find ways to care for those around me.

Frondo 11y ago
Hear hear! I live not far from a really, really run-down part of town, with a grocery store that seems to attract the most downtrodden of society. I love shopping there, even though everyone I know has sworn it off, because of how it always reminds me: a lot of people have it much worse off than me, but they are still human and worthy of compassion and respect. I'll shop there even after I've sold my business and have enough pocket money to share, because I never want to lose touch with the non-shiny, fat, missing-limbs, dirt-poor, you name it, humanity that everyone else wants to forget about as quickly as possible.

hyperpape 11y ago

Stop and think of it not in terms or whether it reflects badly on you but on the consequences for society. There is nothing good that can be said for creating enclaves of poverty.

yummyfajitas 11y ago
Sure there is. We are often told that inequality is a bad thing. We are also often told that this effect is local, not global. I.e., people complain about rising within-country inequality and barely talk about falling global inequality. By keeping the rich away from the poor we can avoid the harms of inequality. We can have poor neighborhoods, rich neighborhoods, etc, each of which has negligible inequality.
- hyperpape 11y ago
  This is either very good sarcasm or...
  - jedharris 11y ago
    ... or a more or less rational response demonstrating that the challenge by the previous commenter "nothing good to say" can be met by a sufficiently twisted mind.
    - someguydave 11y ago
      Not to mention, the grandparent's suggestion has the side-benefit of more-or-less being global reality already.
  - yummyfajitas 11y ago
    I'm following the premises of inequality mongers and deriving logically a conclusion that disagrees with their mood affiliation. Do you disagree with the premise that local inequality is worse than global?
brbsix 11y ago
As a parent, you have an obligation to provide your child with the best, safest, environment that you are reasonably able to provide. More upscale neighborhoods generally have better schools, activities, opportunities, and so forth. It is absolute madness to disregard this solely because of some vague, unknown societal effects hypothesized in a policy paper.
- tobbyb 11y ago
  And rightly so. But are poor people not allowed or entitled to have the same level of safety and benefits for their family like everyone else, or is it ok to associate and tar an entire socioeconomic group with crime and drugs as some seem to do and leave them to their fate? How is this an egalitarian, equal or democratic society that discriminates against kids even before they are born? Poor people have no choice but to live with it while the more resourceful can afford to isolate and protect themselves but that's not an equal society or one that aspires to be one. No one can advocate that one should not try to get the best for themselves and their children but the if the bare basics of education, healthcare and safety are reliant on socio economic background that there is little incentive for those in power who are always from a privileged socioeconomic background to actually provide meaningful equality beyond posturing. I think there is a danger of an exclusionary way of thinking that encourages ghettos and the kind of entitled thinking often seen here itself on hacker news that presumes in spite of all these disadvantages somehow all these children should compete fairly and succeed with their more privileged counterparts and if they don't and get stuck in a cycle of poverty they only have themselves to blame. This kind of thinking leads to a bigoted society, and you then can't complain when you or your children are similarly excluded by those from a higher social-economic background in neighborhoods and other aspects of life, when not possible legally by financial or social means. This doesn't produce an enlightened and egalitarian society, you reap what you sow.
- sanderjd 11y ago
  > As a parent, you have an obligation to provide your child with the best, safest, environment that you are reasonably able to provide. Ah, see, I'm not a parent, so who knows, my perspective may well change when I am, but if you asked me what a parent's job is, that is not the first thing I would say. I think I would instead say something hand-wavy about raising valuable, high functioning, members of adult society. Certainly, safety is a prerequisite to making it into adult society, but it seems like quite a lot of the stuff parents do to try to provide their child with "the best, safest, environment that they are reasonably able to provide" is counter to the main goal of raising good people. Keeping kids segregated from "those people" (whoever that happens to be in the parents' view) is a perfect example.

sjg007 11y ago

Society benefits and so do you from socioeconomic ally integrated neighborhoods. You get cooks and shops staffed. You get people who dine out etc. It takes a village can also be it takes a neighborhood.

Nutmog 11y ago
You also get crime. That's probably the biggest factor pushing middle class people away from poor neighborhoods. Nevermind that the innocent poor people stuck in those neighborhoods have to suffer the crime.
- mcv 11y ago
  That sounds like it's mostly the result of a lack of law enforcement, and a lack of good social programs. Crime can be addressed.
- sjg007 11y ago
  It's not just poor people who commit crime.

mikeash 11y ago

Why does having a family make you not want to have neighbors who are way richer or poorer than you are? Me, I just want to have good neighbors. Both rich and poor people can be good neighbors.

im2w1l 11y ago
Probably he doesn't want his kids to do drugs and crime and get shitty grades. Or be the victim of crime
- mikeash 11y ago
  That's unfair. Not all rich people are criminals.
- jedharris 11y ago
  Also not all rich people are druggies.

mcv 11y ago

Now that I have family and children, I find it important that my children have contact with people in different socioecenomic situations, so they understand that not everybody lives like us. I'm very glad that one of the best friends of my oldest son is Moroccan, and another is half Japanese, although his school is still remarkable white for this neighbourhood (perhaps Montessori schools appeal more to white, educated or affluent people?). Of course in the end, I don't want anyone to be way richer or poorer than we are, but as long as that's the reality we live in, I'd like my children to be aware of that.

eibrahim 11y ago

sorry for the late response but stupid HN doesn't notify me when i get a response. I will bitch about this until they implement it :) You guys bring up a ton of great points. I do want my kids to be aware of other "classes" not to grow up in a bubble but I don't have to live next to a poor neighbor for them to understand poverty and care about the poor. I grew up middle class most of my life and I have a lot of empathy (I think/hope) mostly because my parents taught me that. I remember when I didn't finish my food as a kid my dad would say "there are children starving in Ethiopia and you want to throw half your plate away" (no offense, i grew up in Egypt as a kid and there was a famine in Ethiopia at the time). Or when a button on a shirt falls off, my mom would fix it instead of just throwing away the entire shirt like many people in the USA would do (I assume). Or collecting money for a struggling family in our church... These are all small examples but they helped me understand that not everyone had it as good/bad as we did. My point is, you can teach your kid empathy and compassion. Take them to feed the homeless, have them donate money to the poor. make sandwiches for a shelter. etc. etc...