5 ms·

What's depressing is that I think most of us would agree that America's best days are not the current era, therefore they must be in the past or future. :(

by mwfunk 11y ago

Shivetya 11y ago
I think its more on point to say when people are overwhelmed by what is happening around them they get distressed. We are the first generation is information saturated. There is so much out there waiting to be found and so much flooding in that many only focus on the extremes of what they receive.
oldmanjay 11y ago
I am not sure you could ever get a consensus of contemporary people to agree that they are in the best of all possible times no matter what era. It's a well-worn joke that the last generation is always assholes and the next generation is always useless and heading to hell, going back to Socrates and I'm sure beyond even that. On top of that, being depressed about it certainly isn't a reasonable reaction to reality, just an emotional reaction to perception. It's probably worse than pointless since the most likely use would be as a rationalization for giving up.
- Al-Khwarizmi 11y ago
  I'm not American but European, but in the 80s and 90s I remember there was a general perception of progress, of things getting better and better. We got some inventions that were a revolution for people's everyday life, like computers, mobile phones and the Internet. Achievements like putting a man on the moon were still rather recent and still seemed like they would be repeated. Religion appeared to be on a decline in the West and freedom of expression on the rise, without being so much menaced by religious bigots on the one side and political correctness on the other. People weren't worried about terrorism (at least compared to now), one could go to the airport and ride a plane in like 10 or 15 minutes. I think there was a general change in attitude at the turn of the millennium, of course the symbolic turning point was 9/11, although it would probably have happened anyway. But the 9/11 changes were especially visible, we went from being a society that took bold steps forward to a society that walked cautiously and scaredly - and that's even in Europe, I suppose it was even more noticeable in America. I don't know if there would have been as much as a consensus about being in the best of all possible times, but I think if you asked in the 90s many people would answer that they were better than any past time, and still improving. You would get that kind of answer much less often now. All this in the West, of course. I suppose if you ask e.g. in China, things would be quite different.
drzaiusapelord 11y ago
What metric exactly makes you think things are in a decline? Currently GDP per capita $53,041.98 (2013). Human Development Index Rank: 8. Unemployment rate 5%. GDP $17T, worldwide rank #1 ($3T in 1980 which is $8.6T fixed for inflation, so DOUBLE the GDP of the 80s). Violent crime rate 4.4 percent, lowest since 1970s, etc. Those pining for the productivity of the 50s and 60s certainly are allowed their biases, but be aware this includes making sure women and minorities can't get good jobs and keeping college enrollments expensive and out of reach for many. You needed to be a middle-class or higher white male to get the benefits of society at that time. Why do we assume in this hypothetical where we go back in time and enjoy those peroids that we aren't a woman or a black person or that we don't care about any of the social issues of the time? Also, I hope you're not a steelworker in 1960's in this scenario or actually any manufacturing, because in a decade your job will disappear permanently due to foreign competition. Oh and all the good jobs are "company men" jobs so daily overtime is expected, drinking with your coworkers is expected after, socializing only with your coworkers is expected, and the family is the sort of thing your wife manages and who you interact with on the weekends.
- laotzu 11y ago
  GDP and Unemployment rates are very poor measurements to look to for indications of "progress"
- IkmoIkmo 11y ago
  A quick note on the human development index, there's an average one (where say bill gates walking into a room of homeless people means the average person in the room is a billionaire) and an inequality-adjusted one (where you get the same thing, only adjusted for the fact that one guy holds 99.99% of the wealth in the room and the average person is actually homeless). I'm exaggerating my story a little bit of course. Anyway, on the adjusted figure, the US comes in at nr 28, which is certainly not a great place to be as there aren't all that many developed countries, let alone rich developed countries. Further, the HDI is really lacking in certain areas. But it's decent, unlike the 'OECD better life' index which is a complete joke. Beyond that, anyone taking a serious look at our society would have to conclude it's much better off across the board than before. Look at education rates, crime rates, life expectancy, civil rights, it's a world of difference in some cases. Drugs is somewhat a new issue that didn't exist in the same fashion long ago (although already better than the 80s for example), and poverty remains tricky. But even there, I'm a kid from a poor family from a minority background and I've traveled and studied in different continents, have advanced degrees, a decent job. There's opportunity for me that simply wasn't there, as you mention, some decades ago. And to be poor today usually means you have access to a basic quality of life that simply wasn't available back then. I know plenty of people who didn't have warm water growing up, showered at the neighbours or some public facility. That's virtually unthinkable in western-europe today, as I would assume to a large extent it is in the US. I won't even go into the value of something like the internet that cost me growing up the equivalent of 4 hours of wages in a supermarket per month, and from which I gained priceless value, the fact my wealth didn't grow during this time versus the wealth of similar people 50 years ago, didn't capture the immense wealth I had accessible to me that they didn't. These things are not always easy to capture in terms of GDP growth, if anything the 'added value' of a telephone or postal service that got swallowed up by dirt cheap instant messaging, probably reduced GDP if anything. And worldwide... oh man, TREMENDOUS progress we somehow don't celebrate. I mean just compare the number of kids under 5 who die per year of preventable issues today and say in 1995, just 20 years ago. A quick hint, the annual figure roughly halved and it's equivalent to roughly the holocaust (6 million deaths) being prevented every single year. Poverty reduction is hugely positive, too, as is primary and secondary school attendance and healthcare. It's quite amazing how shitty things were, and how ignorantly nostalgic we are.
taivare 11y ago
Sad, truth is our best day's our past , as a kid of the 60's I wasn't alive to see the 50's and the top of what a demand side economy , provided the average citizen ,however to compare life today with the average back then , is apples and oranges. I lived in rust belt urban city , neighborhood is extremely, far worse now. Grandparents lived in very rural town it is far worse now, 46% unemployment , working age men,last time I checked. Glad my grandfather and his buddies are not here to see their town now ! They , Greatest generation sacrificed so much for their country , the baby boomers should be ashamed. Going forward ,the younger generation should look towards decentralization ,self-sufficient ways to survive , and thrive. In Tao's NM they are building many types of efficient housing , allowing a ecco-friendly way of life.
- rwmurrayVT 11y ago
  Yes, life was great for white males in the 50's and 60's. You're romanticizing it because you were on the right side of the fence.
  - taivare 11y ago
    My comment doesn't reflect my families personal circumstances ,but of the era of the 60's and the demand side economy which, provided a greater standard of living for the minorities of my neighborhood as well .
Reedx 11y ago
That's what every generation says, but I would contend that they are usually mistaken - perhaps clouded by nostalgia and fear of change. Look at the progress of medicine, science, human rights, rates of violence, access to information, etc. All have improved dramatically and continue to.
- kefka 11y ago
  Good point. You can say that the progress to each of those things is increasing, and that they are. But when we look at access to medicine, it is abysmal in this country. And when we had a decent reform (PPACA), the Republicans shit a brick. And in many states, they still are obstructing by forcing the federal exchanges to handle the burden, or they do stunts like what Kentucky did when they elected a Tea Partier. Science: Again, access if you're rich. There's a few things poorer people get access to, only because lower science good would be too expensive to produce. Human rights: Yeah, we don't have lynchings any more, but black people are discriminated against. And police in many jurisdictions are now the legal mafia with Civil Forfeiture. Rates of violence: There's been work stating that getting lead out of gasoline seems to be statistically significant in why violence is lowering. Access of Info: True. But the way the US economy is stagnating, actual data costs are skyrocketing. And poorer people only have the library or free hotspots to count on. If they can afford mobile data, they might have that.
themagician 11y ago
It's hard to compare now to the past because there are so few similarities between the post-war era and today. The world was a different place in time when 20 million people had died and the whole of Western civilization was in shambles outside of the United States. Work had a different meaning, a different tone. That will (hopefully) never happen again. While it looks good through media in hindsight, keep in mind that the "glory days" didn't apply to the 400,000 dead Americans. A lot of the policies, morals, and ways of thinking about work are vestigial elements in our society from a time that no longer exists. The way we work, what we do, what we consider "productive", how we distribute wealth… none of these things really make sense when you sit down and think about it. But we are so wrapped up in the past that we continue to sell that dream and use "capitalism", "freedom", and the "market economy" to justify policy, morality, and ethics. We are entering an era of technological progress and innovation with a mindset from a time before the transistor existed. There will be a point in time when we will have to move away from what we think of today as free market capitalism. There will be a point in time where we have to rethink our ideas around individuality and what it means to be "self made". We are already butting up against this transition period, and it's being met with firm resistance. It will be painful and I don't see it happening in my lifetime, but it will happen. And we can't look backward to the way things were unless we want the world to go back to the state it was when those things were true. If we ever want to live in a Star Trek universe we will have to completely reprioritize… everything. We will have to refocus and science and education and realize that 9/10 current jobs are completely unnecessary. America has a real hatred for "freeloaders." We are raised to believe we are special and unique and possible of doing great things on our own. Raised to believe that if we are smart and work hard and make it, that we earned it. That we deserve to live a better life than others. It's mostly bullshit. When you think about it it's obvious. But we don't think about it, we just do, because the alternative makes us uneasy. I have only ever met a handful of extraordinary individuals in my lifetime. They are few and far between. Most people, including myself, add very little value to society. The amount I get paid relative to what I actually do is so wildly out of whack it's hard to stomach sometimes when I wake up and look at myself in the mirror. I do not deserve the life I live. Then again, neither does anyone around me. But we all pretend we do, and we move forward. Some (most?) probably never stop to think about it and believe they deserve it. TL;DR The economic, political, moral and ethical models that emerged in the post-war era no longer apply. We should recognize this and start to rethink them, as they were really only designed for that point in time. The past is, hopefully, irrelevant.

What's depressing is that I think most of us would agree that America's best days are not the current era, therefore they must be in the past or future. :(

by mwfunk 11y ago

What's depressing is that I think most of us would agree that America's best days are not the current era, therefore they must be in the past or future. :(

Shivetya 11y ago

I think its more on point to say when people are overwhelmed by what is happening around them they get distressed. We are the first generation is information saturated. There is so much out there waiting to be found and so much flooding in that many only focus on the extremes of what they receive.

oldmanjay 11y ago

I am not sure you could ever get a consensus of contemporary people to agree that they are in the best of all possible times no matter what era. It's a well-worn joke that the last generation is always assholes and the next generation is always useless and heading to hell, going back to Socrates and I'm sure beyond even that. On top of that, being depressed about it certainly isn't a reasonable reaction to reality, just an emotional reaction to perception. It's probably worse than pointless since the most likely use would be as a rationalization for giving up.

Al-Khwarizmi 11y ago
I'm not American but European, but in the 80s and 90s I remember there was a general perception of progress, of things getting better and better. We got some inventions that were a revolution for people's everyday life, like computers, mobile phones and the Internet. Achievements like putting a man on the moon were still rather recent and still seemed like they would be repeated. Religion appeared to be on a decline in the West and freedom of expression on the rise, without being so much menaced by religious bigots on the one side and political correctness on the other. People weren't worried about terrorism (at least compared to now), one could go to the airport and ride a plane in like 10 or 15 minutes. I think there was a general change in attitude at the turn of the millennium, of course the symbolic turning point was 9/11, although it would probably have happened anyway. But the 9/11 changes were especially visible, we went from being a society that took bold steps forward to a society that walked cautiously and scaredly - and that's even in Europe, I suppose it was even more noticeable in America. I don't know if there would have been as much as a consensus about being in the best of all possible times, but I think if you asked in the 90s many people would answer that they were better than any past time, and still improving. You would get that kind of answer much less often now. All this in the West, of course. I suppose if you ask e.g. in China, things would be quite different.

drzaiusapelord 11y ago

What metric exactly makes you think things are in a decline? Currently GDP per capita $53,041.98 (2013). Human Development Index Rank: 8. Unemployment rate 5%. GDP $17T, worldwide rank #1 ($3T in 1980 which is $8.6T fixed for inflation, so DOUBLE the GDP of the 80s). Violent crime rate 4.4 percent, lowest since 1970s, etc. Those pining for the productivity of the 50s and 60s certainly are allowed their biases, but be aware this includes making sure women and minorities can't get good jobs and keeping college enrollments expensive and out of reach for many. You needed to be a middle-class or higher white male to get the benefits of society at that time. Why do we assume in this hypothetical where we go back in time and enjoy those peroids that we aren't a woman or a black person or that we don't care about any of the social issues of the time? Also, I hope you're not a steelworker in 1960's in this scenario or actually any manufacturing, because in a decade your job will disappear permanently due to foreign competition. Oh and all the good jobs are "company men" jobs so daily overtime is expected, drinking with your coworkers is expected after, socializing only with your coworkers is expected, and the family is the sort of thing your wife manages and who you interact with on the weekends.

laotzu 11y ago
GDP and Unemployment rates are very poor measurements to look to for indications of "progress"
IkmoIkmo 11y ago
A quick note on the human development index, there's an average one (where say bill gates walking into a room of homeless people means the average person in the room is a billionaire) and an inequality-adjusted one (where you get the same thing, only adjusted for the fact that one guy holds 99.99% of the wealth in the room and the average person is actually homeless). I'm exaggerating my story a little bit of course. Anyway, on the adjusted figure, the US comes in at nr 28, which is certainly not a great place to be as there aren't all that many developed countries, let alone rich developed countries. Further, the HDI is really lacking in certain areas. But it's decent, unlike the 'OECD better life' index which is a complete joke. Beyond that, anyone taking a serious look at our society would have to conclude it's much better off across the board than before. Look at education rates, crime rates, life expectancy, civil rights, it's a world of difference in some cases. Drugs is somewhat a new issue that didn't exist in the same fashion long ago (although already better than the 80s for example), and poverty remains tricky. But even there, I'm a kid from a poor family from a minority background and I've traveled and studied in different continents, have advanced degrees, a decent job. There's opportunity for me that simply wasn't there, as you mention, some decades ago. And to be poor today usually means you have access to a basic quality of life that simply wasn't available back then. I know plenty of people who didn't have warm water growing up, showered at the neighbours or some public facility. That's virtually unthinkable in western-europe today, as I would assume to a large extent it is in the US. I won't even go into the value of something like the internet that cost me growing up the equivalent of 4 hours of wages in a supermarket per month, and from which I gained priceless value, the fact my wealth didn't grow during this time versus the wealth of similar people 50 years ago, didn't capture the immense wealth I had accessible to me that they didn't. These things are not always easy to capture in terms of GDP growth, if anything the 'added value' of a telephone or postal service that got swallowed up by dirt cheap instant messaging, probably reduced GDP if anything. And worldwide... oh man, TREMENDOUS progress we somehow don't celebrate. I mean just compare the number of kids under 5 who die per year of preventable issues today and say in 1995, just 20 years ago. A quick hint, the annual figure roughly halved and it's equivalent to roughly the holocaust (6 million deaths) being prevented every single year. Poverty reduction is hugely positive, too, as is primary and secondary school attendance and healthcare. It's quite amazing how shitty things were, and how ignorantly nostalgic we are.

taivare 11y ago

Sad, truth is our best day's our past , as a kid of the 60's I wasn't alive to see the 50's and the top of what a demand side economy , provided the average citizen ,however to compare life today with the average back then , is apples and oranges. I lived in rust belt urban city , neighborhood is extremely, far worse now. Grandparents lived in very rural town it is far worse now, 46% unemployment , working age men,last time I checked. Glad my grandfather and his buddies are not here to see their town now ! They , Greatest generation sacrificed so much for their country , the baby boomers should be ashamed. Going forward ,the younger generation should look towards decentralization ,self-sufficient ways to survive , and thrive. In Tao's NM they are building many types of efficient housing , allowing a ecco-friendly way of life.

rwmurrayVT 11y ago
Yes, life was great for white males in the 50's and 60's. You're romanticizing it because you were on the right side of the fence.
- taivare 11y ago
  My comment doesn't reflect my families personal circumstances ,but of the era of the 60's and the demand side economy which, provided a greater standard of living for the minorities of my neighborhood as well .

Reedx 11y ago

That's what every generation says, but I would contend that they are usually mistaken - perhaps clouded by nostalgia and fear of change. Look at the progress of medicine, science, human rights, rates of violence, access to information, etc. All have improved dramatically and continue to.

kefka 11y ago
Good point. You can say that the progress to each of those things is increasing, and that they are. But when we look at access to medicine, it is abysmal in this country. And when we had a decent reform (PPACA), the Republicans shit a brick. And in many states, they still are obstructing by forcing the federal exchanges to handle the burden, or they do stunts like what Kentucky did when they elected a Tea Partier. Science: Again, access if you're rich. There's a few things poorer people get access to, only because lower science good would be too expensive to produce. Human rights: Yeah, we don't have lynchings any more, but black people are discriminated against. And police in many jurisdictions are now the legal mafia with Civil Forfeiture. Rates of violence: There's been work stating that getting lead out of gasoline seems to be statistically significant in why violence is lowering. Access of Info: True. But the way the US economy is stagnating, actual data costs are skyrocketing. And poorer people only have the library or free hotspots to count on. If they can afford mobile data, they might have that.

themagician 11y ago

It's hard to compare now to the past because there are so few similarities between the post-war era and today. The world was a different place in time when 20 million people had died and the whole of Western civilization was in shambles outside of the United States. Work had a different meaning, a different tone. That will (hopefully) never happen again. While it looks good through media in hindsight, keep in mind that the "glory days" didn't apply to the 400,000 dead Americans. A lot of the policies, morals, and ways of thinking about work are vestigial elements in our society from a time that no longer exists. The way we work, what we do, what we consider "productive", how we distribute wealth… none of these things really make sense when you sit down and think about it. But we are so wrapped up in the past that we continue to sell that dream and use "capitalism", "freedom", and the "market economy" to justify policy, morality, and ethics. We are entering an era of technological progress and innovation with a mindset from a time before the transistor existed. There will be a point in time when we will have to move away from what we think of today as free market capitalism. There will be a point in time where we have to rethink our ideas around individuality and what it means to be "self made". We are already butting up against this transition period, and it's being met with firm resistance. It will be painful and I don't see it happening in my lifetime, but it will happen. And we can't look backward to the way things were unless we want the world to go back to the state it was when those things were true. If we ever want to live in a Star Trek universe we will have to completely reprioritize… everything. We will have to refocus and science and education and realize that 9/10 current jobs are completely unnecessary. America has a real hatred for "freeloaders." We are raised to believe we are special and unique and possible of doing great things on our own. Raised to believe that if we are smart and work hard and make it, that we earned it. That we deserve to live a better life than others. It's mostly bullshit. When you think about it it's obvious. But we don't think about it, we just do, because the alternative makes us uneasy. I have only ever met a handful of extraordinary individuals in my lifetime. They are few and far between. Most people, including myself, add very little value to society. The amount I get paid relative to what I actually do is so wildly out of whack it's hard to stomach sometimes when I wake up and look at myself in the mirror. I do not deserve the life I live. Then again, neither does anyone around me. But we all pretend we do, and we move forward. Some (most?) probably never stop to think about it and believe they deserve it. TL;DR The economic, political, moral and ethical models that emerged in the post-war era no longer apply. We should recognize this and start to rethink them, as they were really only designed for that point in time. The past is, hopefully, irrelevant.