3 ms·

Bad ideas like Javascript and Mozilla.

mirap 11y ago
Btw the desktop version of Brave seems to be written in JavaScript: https://github.com/brave/browser-laptop https://github.com/brave/browser-laptop
lmm 11y ago
I think the web would be much better off without either of those. Without Javascript we would have got real programming languages on the web quicker (maybe tklets would have taken off). Without Mozilla we would have got a sensible box model quicker, a sensible way of embedding audio/video quicker, and more development on the open-source-from-the-ground-up (and, not coincidentally I think, higher quality code) KHTML sooner.
- rockdoe 11y ago
  You could also have gotten VBScript in IE6 and more strict licensing terms for H264 and AAC streaming. I also don't think WebKit (let alone Blink) are poster childs of "true open source community development".
- nobleach 11y ago
  The only programming languages vying for a web position were those from Microsoft and Java. Yes, VBScript and Java are real programming languages. And no, I wouldn't have wanted either on the web. Having lived through those dark days, I think it's a bit myopic to think things would actually be better if those days were still in effect.
- pcwalton 11y ago
  > Without Javascript we would have got real programming languages on the web quicker (maybe tklets would have taken off). I can't find information on "tklets", but if you're referring to Tcl, no way. Tcl doesn't even have references. The "everything is a string" model is fine for small programs but is pretty dated; there's a reason why no language since Tcl has adopted it. > Without Mozilla we would have got a sensible box model quicker This is silly. CSS1, and its box model, was developed by Håkon Wium Lie and Bert Bos, neither of whom were at Mozilla. -moz-box-sizing has been supported since Firefox 1. > more development on the open-source-from-the-ground-up (and, not coincidentally I think, higher quality code) KHTML sooner It's debatable whether KHTML is higher quality code. I'm no fan of XPCOM and XUL, for example, but I equally don't like many of the things WebKit does, like not having a holistic solution for DOM cycle leaks.
- DonHopkins 11y ago
  How soon people forget the Great TCL War of 1994. TCL/Tk was vying for a web position well before Java. Apparently, not a lot of people remember Sun's unilateral announcement that they were going to make TCL the official web scripting language. (I can't even find a link to, unfortunately.) It triggered RMS's "Why you should not use Tcl" response [1], and the ensuing flame war [2]. There was a huge debate about what the official scripting language would be for the web, after Sun hired John Ousterhout [3] and made its announcement that pissed off RMS. RMS's position was that it should be Scheme, not TCL, of course. What TCL/Tk had going for it was not the TCL language itself, but that it had a nice GUI system with its own "canvas", much better than anything Java or JavaScript had years later. It didn't go so well, so Sun changed their mind and decided to de-emphasize TCL, and then tried to make Java the "official web scripting language". And everyone knows how that went. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20141028202423/http://www.vanderburg.org/OldPages/Tcl/war/0000.html https://web.archive.org/web/20141028202423/http://www.vander... [2] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.tcl/7JXGt-Uxqag%5B401-425%5D https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.tcl/7JXGt-... [3] http://www.softpanorama.org/People/Ousterhout/index.shtml http://www.softpanorama.org/People/Ousterhout/index.shtml

mirap 11y ago

Btw the desktop version of Brave seems to be written in JavaScript: https://github.com/brave/browser-laptop https://github.com/brave/browser-laptop

lmm 11y ago

I think the web would be much better off without either of those. Without Javascript we would have got real programming languages on the web quicker (maybe tklets would have taken off). Without Mozilla we would have got a sensible box model quicker, a sensible way of embedding audio/video quicker, and more development on the open-source-from-the-ground-up (and, not coincidentally I think, higher quality code) KHTML sooner.

rockdoe 11y ago
You could also have gotten VBScript in IE6 and more strict licensing terms for H264 and AAC streaming. I also don't think WebKit (let alone Blink) are poster childs of "true open source community development".
nobleach 11y ago
The only programming languages vying for a web position were those from Microsoft and Java. Yes, VBScript and Java are real programming languages. And no, I wouldn't have wanted either on the web. Having lived through those dark days, I think it's a bit myopic to think things would actually be better if those days were still in effect.
pcwalton 11y ago
> Without Javascript we would have got real programming languages on the web quicker (maybe tklets would have taken off). I can't find information on "tklets", but if you're referring to Tcl, no way. Tcl doesn't even have references. The "everything is a string" model is fine for small programs but is pretty dated; there's a reason why no language since Tcl has adopted it. > Without Mozilla we would have got a sensible box model quicker This is silly. CSS1, and its box model, was developed by Håkon Wium Lie and Bert Bos, neither of whom were at Mozilla. -moz-box-sizing has been supported since Firefox 1. > more development on the open-source-from-the-ground-up (and, not coincidentally I think, higher quality code) KHTML sooner It's debatable whether KHTML is higher quality code. I'm no fan of XPCOM and XUL, for example, but I equally don't like many of the things WebKit does, like not having a holistic solution for DOM cycle leaks.
DonHopkins 11y ago
How soon people forget the Great TCL War of 1994. TCL/Tk was vying for a web position well before Java. Apparently, not a lot of people remember Sun's unilateral announcement that they were going to make TCL the official web scripting language. (I can't even find a link to, unfortunately.) It triggered RMS's "Why you should not use Tcl" response [1], and the ensuing flame war [2]. There was a huge debate about what the official scripting language would be for the web, after Sun hired John Ousterhout [3] and made its announcement that pissed off RMS. RMS's position was that it should be Scheme, not TCL, of course. What TCL/Tk had going for it was not the TCL language itself, but that it had a nice GUI system with its own "canvas", much better than anything Java or JavaScript had years later. It didn't go so well, so Sun changed their mind and decided to de-emphasize TCL, and then tried to make Java the "official web scripting language". And everyone knows how that went. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20141028202423/http://www.vanderburg.org/OldPages/Tcl/war/0000.html https://web.archive.org/web/20141028202423/http://www.vander... [2] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.tcl/7JXGt-Uxqag%5B401-425%5D https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.tcl/7JXGt-... [3] http://www.softpanorama.org/People/Ousterhout/index.shtml http://www.softpanorama.org/People/Ousterhout/index.shtml