6 ms·

> ISIS also subsidizes the cost of bread for the public, experts say. Honestly did not expect that. The world is more complex that portrayed.

pc86 11y ago
I don't think "doesn't want innocent people to starve to death" and "wants to cut off someone's head because of their religion" are mutually exclusive.
- JshWright 11y ago
  "Doesn't want innocent people to starve to death" and "Doesn't want people to go hungry and start rising up against you" look pretty similar from the outside...
  - pc86 11y ago
    Yeah fair point. Altruistic acts <> altruistic motives and all that
pwthornton 11y ago
This is not uncommon behavior from groups like this or even the old Italian mob in the U.S. Doing humanitarian things like this with the locals helps buy you support and protection. Hamas has done this for years (including schools and healthcare), which helped buy it good will and even win elections. A lot of times these groups are doing more for local populations in terms of making sure they have food and basic necessities than the government. Usually when this is happening, it's a pretty strong indictment of the official government.
- jerf 11y ago
  The line between organized crime and government can be surprisingly thin. I actually don't intend this as a criticism of government; I intend it as an interesting question to muse over. I believe it has good answers, but the question is richer than you might initially think. (For instance, you might be inclined to try drawing a simple line between the two based on "the consent of the governed". Which is all fine and dandy at a social scale, but what does that mean to you as an individual? Have you tried removing your consent from your local government? The question is not as easy as it may look at first. Even as, again, I want to emphasize that I think it can be answered reasonably; just not easily.)
  - roel_v 11y ago
    Which organization would you use as an example for which it's not clear whether they are 'organized crime' or a 'government'?
    - jerf 11y ago
      While I wasn't thinking of a particular case, ISIS is certainly an instance of trying to cross the line. (Which I suppose also further underlines the point I want to emphasize about how I'm trying to promote a food-for-thought question, not a value judgment. Personally I find ISIS contemptible as an organized crime mob, and I find them contemptible as a government. I have no plans to change my opinions based on which side of the line they fall on. Which one are they on, though? Honestly the answer probably varies by region at this point. You can make a case that Westphalian-style countries are dead in the Middle East, and a stronger case that they are at least trending down. Whether that trend will be permanent is anyone's guess.)
    - AnAfrican 11y ago
      warlords in the DRC vs local government in the DRC. except for outside recognition of legitimacy, the line can be thin. (and it is, since people jump from one to another easily)
    - rdl 11y ago
      Hezbollah in Lebanon. Hamas before they were elected.
  - boxy310 11y ago
    This largely comes down to the state being primarily defined as a monopoly of force. When non-state actors end up wielding the most threat of force, then collective decision-making is effectively deferred to those most capable of enforcing its will. This is why I cannot give much credibility to anarcho-capitalist states. Simply removing a visible state does not preclude shadow governments from forming.
    - npongratz 11y ago
- lohengramm 11y ago
  Absolutely. There are only benefits in acquiring the support from the local population, specially when people feel "neglected" by their current official government. This happens a lot in Brazilian poorest locations, where drug dealing gangs mix violence with "community support", creating a combination of fear and "acceptance" in the locals, getting them not only to not help the police, but also to "accept" their relatives getting into crime, as if it wasn't "completely wrong". There is also special behavior targeted at children, in order to drag them to crime later (or as soon as possible).
static_noise 11y ago
If you view the world from their viewpoint they are the good guys. That's true for virtually any group.
napoleond 11y ago
There is a fascinating video from Vice by a journalist embedded with some ISIS troops: https://news.vice.com/video/the-islamic-state-full-length https://news.vice.com/video/the-islamic-state-full-length It clearly shows the group's violent rhetoric and uncompromising ideology, but also illustrates that ISIS is far more than a war machine. They are trying to create a nation, and that includes civic law enforcement and social services. For many people in the conquered regions, it represents more stability than whatever was there before. Of course, there are many others who are terrorized by ISIS (typically because they do not adhere to the correct brand of religion in the correct way) but it's important to remember that there is a fair-sized contingent of civilians on the ground who welcome ISIS.
- mikeash 11y ago
  I heard an interview the other day from one of those civilians. Before ISIS, they had a dozen competing militias screwing around, and they never knew who was on top or which one they'd have to deal with at any particular moment or what they might want. With ISIS there's exactly one group in charge and they know exactly what that group wants. I don't know that this person welcomed ISIS, per se, but they saw it as a substantial improvement over what was before. I think a lot of these people would prefer a strong, sane national government that isn't at war with everybody and lets people live their lives. But that doesn't seem to be an option, and ISIS is the best they've had recently.
  - seivan 11y ago
    Muslims (Sunni) will always welcome groups like ISIS because it offers what they want: Sharia laws, kuffr sex-slaves and etc. Arab sunni muslims in Sinjar raped, sold and murdered their own non-muslim neighbours as soon as ISIS strolled into town. They weren't forced, they were greeting them with open arms evident by photos. I don't like to entertain the notion about whitewashing ISIS as some sort of a sensible "muslim alternative", not that I'm accusing you to suggest that. I'm just noticing that pattern here more and more, some serious high level of naivety of people who've never experienced living in those areas and conditions. Both Lee Kuan Yew and Pim Fortuyn are gone. Not much hope left.
calibraxis 11y ago
You can read their internal documents. Here's an intro: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/15/terrorists-isis http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/15/terrori... BTW, the word "state" in "Islamic State..." makes it pretty clear: they're offering state functions. Guess how modern nation-states started: killing rivals, providing security and services to populations inside their boders, establishing central cultures... Of course ISIS needs to be smashed. But note how many nations still celebrate depraved monsters like Christopher Columbus. (Consider that when wondering why people fall for ISIS propaganda. Falling for that kind of propaganda is extremely common; we all do.)
CaptSpify 11y ago
related: https://www.ted.com/talks/rodrigo_canales_the_deadly_genius_of_drug_cartels?language=en https://www.ted.com/talks/rodrigo_canales_the_deadly_genius_... Drug cartels use PR to make people loyal to them. I'd imagine ISIS is doing something relative

pc86 11y ago

I don't think "doesn't want innocent people to starve to death" and "wants to cut off someone's head because of their religion" are mutually exclusive.

JshWright 11y ago
"Doesn't want innocent people to starve to death" and "Doesn't want people to go hungry and start rising up against you" look pretty similar from the outside...
- pc86 11y ago
  Yeah fair point. Altruistic acts <> altruistic motives and all that

pwthornton 11y ago

This is not uncommon behavior from groups like this or even the old Italian mob in the U.S. Doing humanitarian things like this with the locals helps buy you support and protection. Hamas has done this for years (including schools and healthcare), which helped buy it good will and even win elections. A lot of times these groups are doing more for local populations in terms of making sure they have food and basic necessities than the government. Usually when this is happening, it's a pretty strong indictment of the official government.

jerf 11y ago
The line between organized crime and government can be surprisingly thin. I actually don't intend this as a criticism of government; I intend it as an interesting question to muse over. I believe it has good answers, but the question is richer than you might initially think. (For instance, you might be inclined to try drawing a simple line between the two based on "the consent of the governed". Which is all fine and dandy at a social scale, but what does that mean to you as an individual? Have you tried removing your consent from your local government? The question is not as easy as it may look at first. Even as, again, I want to emphasize that I think it can be answered reasonably; just not easily.)
- roel_v 11y ago
  Which organization would you use as an example for which it's not clear whether they are 'organized crime' or a 'government'?
  - jerf 11y ago
    While I wasn't thinking of a particular case, ISIS is certainly an instance of trying to cross the line. (Which I suppose also further underlines the point I want to emphasize about how I'm trying to promote a food-for-thought question, not a value judgment. Personally I find ISIS contemptible as an organized crime mob, and I find them contemptible as a government. I have no plans to change my opinions based on which side of the line they fall on. Which one are they on, though? Honestly the answer probably varies by region at this point. You can make a case that Westphalian-style countries are dead in the Middle East, and a stronger case that they are at least trending down. Whether that trend will be permanent is anyone's guess.)
  - AnAfrican 11y ago
    warlords in the DRC vs local government in the DRC. except for outside recognition of legitimacy, the line can be thin. (and it is, since people jump from one to another easily)
  - rdl 11y ago
    Hezbollah in Lebanon. Hamas before they were elected.
- boxy310 11y ago
  This largely comes down to the state being primarily defined as a monopoly of force. When non-state actors end up wielding the most threat of force, then collective decision-making is effectively deferred to those most capable of enforcing its will. This is why I cannot give much credibility to anarcho-capitalist states. Simply removing a visible state does not preclude shadow governments from forming.
  - npongratz 11y ago
lohengramm 11y ago
Absolutely. There are only benefits in acquiring the support from the local population, specially when people feel "neglected" by their current official government. This happens a lot in Brazilian poorest locations, where drug dealing gangs mix violence with "community support", creating a combination of fear and "acceptance" in the locals, getting them not only to not help the police, but also to "accept" their relatives getting into crime, as if it wasn't "completely wrong". There is also special behavior targeted at children, in order to drag them to crime later (or as soon as possible).

static_noise 11y ago

If you view the world from their viewpoint they are the good guys. That's true for virtually any group.

napoleond 11y ago

There is a fascinating video from Vice by a journalist embedded with some ISIS troops: https://news.vice.com/video/the-islamic-state-full-length https://news.vice.com/video/the-islamic-state-full-length It clearly shows the group's violent rhetoric and uncompromising ideology, but also illustrates that ISIS is far more than a war machine. They are trying to create a nation, and that includes civic law enforcement and social services. For many people in the conquered regions, it represents more stability than whatever was there before. Of course, there are many others who are terrorized by ISIS (typically because they do not adhere to the correct brand of religion in the correct way) but it's important to remember that there is a fair-sized contingent of civilians on the ground who welcome ISIS.

mikeash 11y ago
I heard an interview the other day from one of those civilians. Before ISIS, they had a dozen competing militias screwing around, and they never knew who was on top or which one they'd have to deal with at any particular moment or what they might want. With ISIS there's exactly one group in charge and they know exactly what that group wants. I don't know that this person welcomed ISIS, per se, but they saw it as a substantial improvement over what was before. I think a lot of these people would prefer a strong, sane national government that isn't at war with everybody and lets people live their lives. But that doesn't seem to be an option, and ISIS is the best they've had recently.
- seivan 11y ago
  Muslims (Sunni) will always welcome groups like ISIS because it offers what they want: Sharia laws, kuffr sex-slaves and etc. Arab sunni muslims in Sinjar raped, sold and murdered their own non-muslim neighbours as soon as ISIS strolled into town. They weren't forced, they were greeting them with open arms evident by photos. I don't like to entertain the notion about whitewashing ISIS as some sort of a sensible "muslim alternative", not that I'm accusing you to suggest that. I'm just noticing that pattern here more and more, some serious high level of naivety of people who've never experienced living in those areas and conditions. Both Lee Kuan Yew and Pim Fortuyn are gone. Not much hope left.

calibraxis 11y ago

You can read their internal documents. Here's an intro: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/15/terrorists-isis http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/15/terrori... BTW, the word "state" in "Islamic State..." makes it pretty clear: they're offering state functions. Guess how modern nation-states started: killing rivals, providing security and services to populations inside their boders, establishing central cultures... Of course ISIS needs to be smashed. But note how many nations still celebrate depraved monsters like Christopher Columbus. (Consider that when wondering why people fall for ISIS propaganda. Falling for that kind of propaganda is extremely common; we all do.)

CaptSpify 11y ago

related: https://www.ted.com/talks/rodrigo_canales_the_deadly_genius_of_drug_cartels?language=en https://www.ted.com/talks/rodrigo_canales_the_deadly_genius_... Drug cartels use PR to make people loyal to them. I'd imagine ISIS is doing something relative