4 ms·

"When you have a conversation with an idiot, nobody watching can tell which one of you is the idiot". They are not idiots, they are average people, tech is com

by xlayn 11y ago

"When you have a conversation with an idiot, nobody watching can tell which one of you is the idiot". They are not idiots, they are average people, tech is complex, I wonder if people who have to be told or explain things to represent a market to attend? Imagine, something were you call a number ask for something to be bought; later someone go picking up the money, you perform the purchase and you later deliver. No credit cards, no complex thing to go over.

madaxe_again 11y ago
If you bellow at a stranger because you don't understand something, you're an idiot, sorry. I'd like to hope an "average" person would not gloss over gaps in their knowledge and jump to a hostile conclusion. In your scenario, say you're the phone company - would you think it reasonable if the customer who called in your example blames you for their having made a call and placed an order, because the phone line must have made the call itself and faked the customer's voice?
- xlayn 11y ago
  I understand your point, I'm just presenting one of several possible approaches/points of view: -Defensive: Remove links to: "made by" -Reactive: Handle the situation every time it appears. -Proactive: See if this represents an opportunity for you and approach the market. -Not responding. Edit: format and form.
- cookiecaper 11y ago
  >If you bellow at a stranger because you don't understand something, you're an idiot, sorry. To be fair, the email included in the OP is not really bellowing. She's politely explaining that she found his contact information inside the documentation distributed with the app, and providing screenshots as proof. I think a simple explanation that the name is included only due to technicalities of copyright law and that there is no direct involvement whatsoever is sufficient. After that reply, there is no need to respond further, and almost all lawyers will immediately understand and refuse to proceed with a case. It should also be noted that hosting an ecommerce platform is a lot different from being one of the many low-level libraries employed by the application. It's not necessarily unreasonable to expect an ecommerce processor or host to have reasonable fraud detection schemes in place, and it's certainly plausible that some lawyers would consider suing the ecommerce vendor (especially if the company makes money).
  - elorant 11y ago
    Please keep in mind that Facebook owns Instagram and these are big companies that you likely don’t want to have a trail of evidence that you are a part of an Instagram and Spotify hacking ring. This sounds like bellowing. It's borderline blackmail. Help me with my request or else I make sure Facebook knows what a scumbag you are. The funny thing about this whole story is that she's not contacting him because she thinks he works at Instagram, which would be an understandable misconception, but instead she thinks he's with the hacking team. You have to be completely imbecile to think of villains answering with their real names.
    - CrowFly 11y ago
      See http://acme.com/software/thttpd/repo.html http://acme.com/software/thttpd/repo.html
- Cthulhu_ 11y ago
  > If you bellow at a stranger because you don't understand something, you're an idiot, sorry. But the thing is, does the bellower know they don't understand something? Few people are mature enough (especially when angry) to admit they really don't understand something (and this is probably prevalent in software development circles / communities, too)
  - hawkice 11y ago
    I'm not sure being ignorant of your own ignorance is enough to promote yourself out of 'idiot' status. I don't think these people are dumb, just frustrated. But your phrasing was curious to me.
  - disillusioned 11y ago
    A mark of intelligence is the ability to be objective about what you do and don't know. If I don't understand something, I don't jump down someone's throat based on the limited information I have and try to extrapolate from there. I try to learn more about the issue, listen to experts, evaluate the merits of their argument to the best of my ability, and form an opinion.
    - brenschluss 11y ago
      I agree. But I'd also say that it requires a bit of domain knowledge to know what you don't know. That is to say: I know what I don't know in the fields that I study/practice in. I don't know what I don't know about the fields I don't.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    "But the thing is, does the bellower know they don't understand something?" No, they don't, that's what makes them an idiot. A non-idiot doesn't have to know everything, but they do need to be aware of what they don't know.
- rakoo 11y ago
  > If you bellow at a stranger because you don't understand something, you're an idiot, sorry. If you think everyone has to know everything before seeking help, then you are the idiot, sorry. The woman probably doesn't know what a software is, other than a "Download" button on a website and an icon on the toolbar. Do you expect those people to differentiate between the software and the libraries underneath ? Of course she doesn't understand, but she doesn't know she doesn't understand. That's the very source of the problem, and assuming they're idiot for not having spent the hundreds of hours necessary to understand what we're talking about is ludicrous.
  - conistonwater 11y ago
    You missed the point of that comment. The emphasis is on bellow.
  - mwcampbell 11y ago
    But Daniel replied once with an explanation of why his name was in the software credits, and the user persisted in blaming him for her problems.
    - ghaff 11y ago
      Yes, but she probably didn't really understand his explanation. Look, I get that some people are, from my point of view, obtuse at best. I've had people convinced that I had some affiliation that I didn't or that I added them to some mailing list that I didn't (and unable to comprehend that they could follow the unsubscribe link to get off it). But they're not necessarily idiots. I've provided enough technical support over the years to family (iPad is the best gift, for me, I gave ever) to appreciate that many otherwise bright people really just don't understand how this tech works.
- stcredzero 11y ago
  I'd like to hope an "average" person would not gloss over gaps in their knowledge and jump to a hostile conclusion. This is what many "average" people do, and people have built businesses and political careers out of this.
elorant 11y ago
Senior people who have a hard time understanding technology is one thing. A photographer who uses computers for her job but doesn’t get to understand why a software developer’s name appears in some third party services is a totally different issue. The second case isn’t even about using a service or a product. It’s about understanding intellectual property. His name is there because both services wanted to credit him for his work. How fucking difficult is to understand that? In the same context if I see her name on the photographs of the hotel I happened to stay the other night I should contact her in case I want something from the hotel? I know it sounds elitist but there are people out there who are completely morons. We have to get used to it.
mikeash 11y ago
Part of being a not-idiot is knowing the limits of your own knowledge. If you don't understand how this stuff is put together, fine, that doesn't make you an idiot. But if you just start raging at the nearest available person, rather than doing your research to fill in the gaps in your knowledge, that's an idiot.
overgard 11y ago
> They are not idiots, They ARE idiots, but not because they don't know tech. They're idiots making strong accusations without having any idea what they're talking about or any evidence. People finding scapegoats because they're afraid of the unknown is how we historically ended up with things like the witch trials. Naiveté is fine, not everyone can know everything, but this sort of aggressive ignorance shouldn't be even remotely humored.
raverbashing 11y ago
Some are regular people Most are people that should not have stopped taken what their Psychiatrist has given them (or should go to one given the chance) And let's not forget the scammers, of course
kazinator 11y ago
Yeah, tech is complex, like a bicycle! "Look, I saw your company name under my bicycle seat; how can you say you're not involved in the problem of my pedal having broken off!" Man made stuff is made from parts, and parts have different suppliers; they are not all original, and a given part is not involved in every conceivable problem that occurs somewhere in the whole. Very complicated, that! "No wait, I know what you are. You're part of a bicycle vandal ring. You go around breaking pedals and sticking your 'calling card' sticker underneath bicycle seats."

by xlayn 11y ago

madaxe_again 11y ago

If you bellow at a stranger because you don't understand something, you're an idiot, sorry. I'd like to hope an "average" person would not gloss over gaps in their knowledge and jump to a hostile conclusion. In your scenario, say you're the phone company - would you think it reasonable if the customer who called in your example blames you for their having made a call and placed an order, because the phone line must have made the call itself and faked the customer's voice?

xlayn 11y ago
I understand your point, I'm just presenting one of several possible approaches/points of view: -Defensive: Remove links to: "made by" -Reactive: Handle the situation every time it appears. -Proactive: See if this represents an opportunity for you and approach the market. -Not responding. Edit: format and form.
cookiecaper 11y ago
>If you bellow at a stranger because you don't understand something, you're an idiot, sorry. To be fair, the email included in the OP is not really bellowing. She's politely explaining that she found his contact information inside the documentation distributed with the app, and providing screenshots as proof. I think a simple explanation that the name is included only due to technicalities of copyright law and that there is no direct involvement whatsoever is sufficient. After that reply, there is no need to respond further, and almost all lawyers will immediately understand and refuse to proceed with a case. It should also be noted that hosting an ecommerce platform is a lot different from being one of the many low-level libraries employed by the application. It's not necessarily unreasonable to expect an ecommerce processor or host to have reasonable fraud detection schemes in place, and it's certainly plausible that some lawyers would consider suing the ecommerce vendor (especially if the company makes money).
- elorant 11y ago
  Please keep in mind that Facebook owns Instagram and these are big companies that you likely don’t want to have a trail of evidence that you are a part of an Instagram and Spotify hacking ring. This sounds like bellowing. It's borderline blackmail. Help me with my request or else I make sure Facebook knows what a scumbag you are. The funny thing about this whole story is that she's not contacting him because she thinks he works at Instagram, which would be an understandable misconception, but instead she thinks he's with the hacking team. You have to be completely imbecile to think of villains answering with their real names.
  - CrowFly 11y ago
    See http://acme.com/software/thttpd/repo.html http://acme.com/software/thttpd/repo.html
Cthulhu_ 11y ago
> If you bellow at a stranger because you don't understand something, you're an idiot, sorry. But the thing is, does the bellower know they don't understand something? Few people are mature enough (especially when angry) to admit they really don't understand something (and this is probably prevalent in software development circles / communities, too)
- hawkice 11y ago
  I'm not sure being ignorant of your own ignorance is enough to promote yourself out of 'idiot' status. I don't think these people are dumb, just frustrated. But your phrasing was curious to me.
- disillusioned 11y ago
  A mark of intelligence is the ability to be objective about what you do and don't know. If I don't understand something, I don't jump down someone's throat based on the limited information I have and try to extrapolate from there. I try to learn more about the issue, listen to experts, evaluate the merits of their argument to the best of my ability, and form an opinion.
  - brenschluss 11y ago
    I agree. But I'd also say that it requires a bit of domain knowledge to know what you don't know. That is to say: I know what I don't know in the fields that I study/practice in. I don't know what I don't know about the fields I don't.
- mikeash 11y ago
  "But the thing is, does the bellower know they don't understand something?" No, they don't, that's what makes them an idiot. A non-idiot doesn't have to know everything, but they do need to be aware of what they don't know.
rakoo 11y ago
> If you bellow at a stranger because you don't understand something, you're an idiot, sorry. If you think everyone has to know everything before seeking help, then you are the idiot, sorry. The woman probably doesn't know what a software is, other than a "Download" button on a website and an icon on the toolbar. Do you expect those people to differentiate between the software and the libraries underneath ? Of course she doesn't understand, but she doesn't know she doesn't understand. That's the very source of the problem, and assuming they're idiot for not having spent the hundreds of hours necessary to understand what we're talking about is ludicrous.
- conistonwater 11y ago
  You missed the point of that comment. The emphasis is on bellow.
- mwcampbell 11y ago
  But Daniel replied once with an explanation of why his name was in the software credits, and the user persisted in blaming him for her problems.
  - ghaff 11y ago
    Yes, but she probably didn't really understand his explanation. Look, I get that some people are, from my point of view, obtuse at best. I've had people convinced that I had some affiliation that I didn't or that I added them to some mailing list that I didn't (and unable to comprehend that they could follow the unsubscribe link to get off it). But they're not necessarily idiots. I've provided enough technical support over the years to family (iPad is the best gift, for me, I gave ever) to appreciate that many otherwise bright people really just don't understand how this tech works.
stcredzero 11y ago
I'd like to hope an "average" person would not gloss over gaps in their knowledge and jump to a hostile conclusion. This is what many "average" people do, and people have built businesses and political careers out of this.

elorant 11y ago

Senior people who have a hard time understanding technology is one thing. A photographer who uses computers for her job but doesn’t get to understand why a software developer’s name appears in some third party services is a totally different issue. The second case isn’t even about using a service or a product. It’s about understanding intellectual property. His name is there because both services wanted to credit him for his work. How fucking difficult is to understand that? In the same context if I see her name on the photographs of the hotel I happened to stay the other night I should contact her in case I want something from the hotel? I know it sounds elitist but there are people out there who are completely morons. We have to get used to it.

mikeash 11y ago

Part of being a not-idiot is knowing the limits of your own knowledge. If you don't understand how this stuff is put together, fine, that doesn't make you an idiot. But if you just start raging at the nearest available person, rather than doing your research to fill in the gaps in your knowledge, that's an idiot.

overgard 11y ago

> They are not idiots, They ARE idiots, but not because they don't know tech. They're idiots making strong accusations without having any idea what they're talking about or any evidence. People finding scapegoats because they're afraid of the unknown is how we historically ended up with things like the witch trials. Naiveté is fine, not everyone can know everything, but this sort of aggressive ignorance shouldn't be even remotely humored.

raverbashing 11y ago

Some are regular people Most are people that should not have stopped taken what their Psychiatrist has given them (or should go to one given the chance) And let's not forget the scammers, of course

kazinator 11y ago

Yeah, tech is complex, like a bicycle! "Look, I saw your company name under my bicycle seat; how can you say you're not involved in the problem of my pedal having broken off!" Man made stuff is made from parts, and parts have different suppliers; they are not all original, and a given part is not involved in every conceivable problem that occurs somewhere in the whole. Very complicated, that! "No wait, I know what you are. You're part of a bicycle vandal ring. You go around breaking pedals and sticking your 'calling card' sticker underneath bicycle seats."